Depression Recovery

Question:

> Know the feeling only too well. The delusion that what is being done is both > creative and of any value is overwhelming. I have a during-manic and > post-lithium version of same story and the difference is enough to convince > me of the value of medication. too many thoughts go racing from the brain > and spinning off the arm before hitting the paper, but we think because we > have thought of them and we have written that our thoughts are down on > paper. Delusion, delusion.

I have reams and reams of papers at home covered with ideas which were good and compelling at the time, but which in retrospect I would be ashamed to show to other people… I ended up throwing out the stuff I found downright embarassing, but I’m still debating whether I’ll put the rest up on my web site.  I tend to find it really stuffy and pretentious, but the occasional decent piece does come through sometimes. Cheers, TAE

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When I cannot recall what it was that I was thinking when I wrote it, that’s the time for the bin – rubbish, not loony. As with you, the remainder sits in notes and I keep waiting for a cohesive analogy to act as umbrella – and I think I know what I mean by that. Isabel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Know the feeling only too well. The delusion that what is being done is > both > creative and of any value is overwhelming. I have a during-manic and > post-lithium version of same story and the difference is enough to > convince > me of the value of medication. too many thoughts go racing from the brain > and spinning off the arm before hitting the paper, but we think because we > have thought of them and we have written that our thoughts are down on > paper. Delusion, delusion. > I have reams and reams of papers at home covered with ideas which were good > and compelling at the time, but which in retrospect I would be ashamed to > show to other people… I ended up throwing out the stuff I found downright > embarassing, but I’m still debating whether I’ll put the rest up on my web > site.  I tend to find it really stuffy and pretentious, but the occasional > decent piece does come through sometimes. > Cheers, > TAE

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>Yes, but more so…….your presentation……technical writing > skills, held my attention.  Do you suppose you could ghost > write for Kate Millet if she writes: "the loony bin revisited" >:-o) >Vern

Ghost writing sounds interesting… if there is money to be had… however, I do not know "the loony bin" you refer too, nor have I heard of Kate Millet, and I have the terrible feeling you are being sarcastic (or am I being overly sensitive?). I would, however, rather have my work published under my own name. To that end I am working on a book of poetry and I have the outline of a novel completed (my apologies for not posting poetry to this forum, but publishers consider the Internet as "publication" and do not want to publish material that has already be disseminated). Ciao, Peter Peter Amsel Composer, Writer, Poet, Artist Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. www.synapse.net/~ampl …listening for that still soft voice… (and sometimes ignoring it when I do hear it)

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Hi Tim…I adisagree..I think a lot of good creative work can come out of ‘hypomania’…anyways i think you’re email tag takes the cake – you win the grand prize! IM

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<< Figure and face of the fairer sex is my object de art.  >> objet d’art –    greetings to you vern who posts a lot and whom i am introducing myself to…in

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> << Figure and face of the fairer sex is my object de art.  >> > objet d’art –    greetings to you vern who posts a lot and whom i am > introducing myself to…in

Likewise, Intricate music and thanks for the gentle french lesson. Vern(monolingual) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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i wrote a 410 page (very good) novel during a 2 year manic phase.   as an aside, if anyone knows anyone who might read it for me or could help with publication i would much appreciate it. of course an agent would receive a commission.  i believe there is a market for it at this time. lny

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First place to start lny, is to copyright your work, and find a literary agent.   L – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > i wrote a 410 page (very good) novel during a 2 year manic phase.   as > an aside, if anyone knows anyone who might read it for me or could help > with publication i would much appreciate it. of course an agent would > receive a commission.  i believe there is a market for it at this time. > lny

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I was eating chinese food out of funny little containers when I noticed > i wrote a 410 page (very good) novel during a 2 year manic phase.   as > an aside, if anyone knows anyone who might read it for me or could help > with publication i would much appreciate it. of course an agent would > receive a commission.  i believe there is a market for it at this time.

I don’t have any contacts in the literary trade, but I’d love to read your novel. Cheers, TAE

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I was eating chinese food out of funny little containers when I noticed > (Baroque Period) > Handel — he composed "Messiah" in something like 4-6 weeks… it > would take a person longer than that to COPY it by hand. He also > suffered from log periods of depression towards the end of his life. > Actually it was 24 days. Locked himself in a room for the > entire time. When he emerged he was said to cry out that he > had seen all the heavens and the great God himself.

Didn’t Isaac Newton act in a similar way when he wrote the Pricipia Mathematica? Cheers, TAE

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Actually it was 24 days. Locked himself in a room for the >entire time. When he emerged he was said to cry out that he >had seen all the heavens and the great God himself. > [snip] > I once wrote a long piece (160 single spaced pages) in a little over > two weeks (ten pages a day — no more, no less).  Even the didn’t > spend the entire time my room, I came out  of the room saying, "Why > the **** did I do that?"  Later, I looked at what I’d done and > thought, "What the **** was I talking about?" > I keep it though, along with several other embarrassing things, as a > reminder of what an attack can bring me to. > T.

Know the feeling only too well. The delusion that what is being done is both creative and of any value is overwhelming. I have a during-manic and post-lithium version of same story and the difference is enough to convince me of the value of medication. too many thoughts go racing from the brain and spinning off the arm before hitting the paper, but we think because we have thought of them and we have written that our thoughts are down on paper. Delusion, delusion. After some success as a performance poet way back in the 60’s I now have a policy of not even trying to publish, but content to leave whatever is good enough to survive to my children as "intellectual property" – which is about all I have to bequeath. Sorry no snippage above. OE won’t let me. Isabel

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<snipped>. > Actually it was 24 days. Locked himself in a room for the > entire time. When he emerged he was said to cry out that he > had seen all the heavens and the great God himself. > Didn’t Isaac Newton act in a similar way when he wrote the Pricipia > Mathematica?

No Tony, Ike said: "you deserve a break today, so get up and on your way, to MacDonalds!" Cha cha cha! Vern (mathematical mystery) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Cheers, > TAE

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>Yes, but more so…….your presentation……technical writing > skills, held my attention.  Do you suppose you could ghost > write for Kate Millet if she writes: "the loony bin revisited" >:-o) >Vern > Ghost writing sounds interesting… if there is money to be had… > however, I do not know "the loony bin" you refer too, nor have I heard > of Kate Millet, and I have the terrible feeling you are being > sarcastic (or am I being overly sensitive?).

Overly sensitive, she is a BP(?) anti-med lesbian activist, and the aforementioned autobiography was difficult for me to stomach/comprehend. She seems to have a loyal following. <snipped> Vern – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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<snipped>  Depression, mania  or mood may have nothing to do with it. However, in the arts the proportion of people with mood disorders is quite higher than that of the general population leading researchers (Dr. Jamisen et al) to conclude that there is a correlation between creativity and Bi-polar disorder. Interestingly enough, however, the research did not find the same to hold true with schizoprenia. > I hope you found this interesting…

Yes, but more so…….your presentation……technical writing  skills, held my attention.  Do you suppose you could ghost  write for Kate Millet if she writes: "the loony bin revisited" ) Vern – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Peter > Peter Amsel > Composer, Writer, Poet, Artist > Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. > www.synapse.net/~ampl > …listening for that still soft voice… > (and sometimes ignoring it when I do hear it)

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Hello, When my moods were stabilized by lithium, I, too, had no desire to write poetry; although Depakote and Neurontin did not stop my desire to write it, and they stabilized me for awhile.. However, I have no problem writing fiction and nonfiction now. Meds are very strange things. Ariadne

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Obviously there are numerous examples af artists, composers, poets and writers that we could list who have suffered/lived with manic-depression or depression to some degree. A short sample of composer’s (classical) would include: (Baroque Period) Handel — he composed "Messiah" in something like 4-6 weeks… it would take a person longer than that to COPY it by hand. He also suffered from log periods of depression towards the end of his life. (Classical Period) W.A. Mozart (most likely BP II, some suggest touretts syndrome — he had a fixation with body secretions… see his letters to his sister.. and he was a compulsive spender/gambler) Ludwig van Beethoven — famous for his rages, and his bouts of depression. Some strong evidence for situational depression due to hearing loss, but his mercurial temperment cannot be simply dismissed by circumstances, and they predated his hearing problems. Wrote a famous "suicide note" at the depths of his depression in Heilegenstadt, where his doctor sent him for "quiet and recovery" — neither happened. Fortunately, Beethoven did not kil himself, and went on to compose his greatest works in the depths of his deepest depressions. (Romantic Period) Robert Schumann — Bi Polar … more than likey Type I — composed passionately, in white heat creativity. Composed three string quartets, for example, in a period of about one month during a particularly creative time. Unfortunately the depression returned, with delusions and sever psychosis. After an attempt at suicide he was put into an asylum and starved himself to death… although this is unclear as to whether it was really suicide as the psychiatric practices of the day were not very advanced. Johannes Brahms — depression. The reclusive, brooding Brahms was in love with the wife of Robert Schumann, Clara, but the relationship was never consumated, even after Robert’s death. However, they remained close friends and Brahms never married. He died shortly after Clara, in the closest estimation of friends and contempraries, of a broken heart. Piotr Illych Tchaikovsky — depression… elements of mixed state (BP II?) Much of the angst that Tchaikovsky suffered was from concealing his homosexual identity, however, he struggled with his composing — his first symphony, for example ("Winter Dreams") was premiered in 1870, but was premiered in its final version in 1880. For Tchaikovsky composing was a craft, but creation was a task that had to be worked at — a continuous struggle that took a tremendous toll on him. He suffered severe depression and ultimately drank water that was not boiled (he was warned) and died — leading to the speculation of suicide, shortly after the premiere of his Sixth Symphony, the "Pathetique" … a very dark and foreboding work that is seen as his musical last will and testament. Gustav Mahler — depression, probably cyclothemic or BP II. A prodigious conductor, Mahler is famous for writing some of the most "moody" music of all time. At the time of the birth of his daughter, he composed "Kindertotenlieder" — Songs on the death of children… his wife, Alma, was not impressed. Unfortunately, his depressions were very taxing and Mahler had to seclude himself from all stresses during the summer when he was not conducting and would work for hours on end in a small cottege with only a piano as his furnature. (Modern — Twentieth Century) Sergei Rachmaninoff — Rachmaninoff is perhaps the first composer to have used the services of a hypnotist to "recharge" his creative batteries. After a bought of "writers block" Rachmaninoff sought out the services of Dr. Dahl who, after therapy, told Rachmaninoff that he would compose a new Piano concerto… that he would write with ease and swiftly. The result… Piano Concerto No. 2, dedicated to… Dr. Dahl (one of the most beautiful Romantic piano concertos of all time — although R. lived into the 20th century, his music is fully in the Romantic idiom). I end the list here with these comments: for all the composers mentioned, I could mention several who did NOT suffer from any affective disorder — creativity is a fickle thing… sometimes you are blessed with it and can do something marvelous, then again, when you return to the well you may find that it is dry. Depression, mania or mood may have nothing to do with it. However, in the arts the proportion of people with mood disorders is quite higher than that of the general population leading researchers (Dr. Jamisen et al) to conclude that there is a correlation between creativity and Bi-polar disorder. Interestingly enough, however, the research did not find the same to hold true with schizoprenia. I hope you found this interesting… Peter Peter Amsel Composer, Writer, Poet, Artist Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. www.synapse.net/~ampl …listening for that still soft voice… (and sometimes ignoring it when I do hear it)

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> And now for an opposing viewpoint.  <snipped>

To add support to the opposing viewpoint: I am not a genius (goes without saying), not artistic, owned 40 eleven guitars and not one knows how to play at my command, terrified of public speaking, really dislike poetry unless I am hypomanic or higher; then everything is great. Can’t draw or paint (even with windows) beyond stick figures, captivated by penmanship and writing tools, penmanship is a scrawl (lithium?), my writing even with "writing tools" is atrocious; to be kind. Interest in things of "science" yet mostly baffled by same. Get lost on trips and refuse to ask for directions, must use map, or continue in circles…..and this is in my own city. Figure and face of the fairer sex is my object de art.  I can fall in "love" at the drop of a hat, mostly comely TV anchors, and cinema actresses (Wynona Ryder, those eyes) But we stray…….I meant to say simply: that the only thing enhanced by hypomania or higher, for me at least, is trouble, spelled with a capital T.   I seem to have a talent for being a curmudgen (so I am told) think this is a handicap, not a gift. Vern

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> Hi Allegra, > I started writing poetry after I was TX for BP Illness…amazing to me > too as I never even liked poetry. >  Go figure > Love, > Lynda

I’ve ALWAYS written poetry, but I’m finding that I have a vast burst of poeticism at a certain emotional stage… when I first got depressed I wrote REAMS of poems in a week or so, and I’ve had a few other poetical bursts since then, and/or bursts of other writing… cause that’s my creative thing And these are a bit different to my previous times – they’re much more compulsive… instead of writing ONE poem, I write pages and pages — Karenji/Kaji – dragon/human Shifter depending on mood… *New Dragon Code COMING (eventually) *ICQ 55339701 *http://www.labyrinth.net.au/~gsj/Index.html *Beloved of Sparky, Sister to Wodash *Wingsister to Viriatha, Tanith, Hespa and Amberynth *Lover of Chocolate, and Occasional Giver of Chocolate Points

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Hi, I am the "first one" diagnosed in my family with BP. Come to find out later, I am the great,great,great, grandaughter of Robert Schumann, the composer, pianist… From what I’ve been able to ascertain, his most creative works were accomplished during manic or hypo-manic phases in his life.  The depressive phases stopped all work entirely, the treatment of the time was to be put to bed with a hot water bottle.  In short, yes, I personally believe that manic episodes exude creativity, if for no other reason that it gives us the confidence to pursue creative avenues. * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping.  Smart is Beautiful

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Hi Allegra, I started writing poetry after I was TX for BP Illness…amazing to me too as I never even liked poetry.  Go figure Love, Lynda

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I’m just the opposite. When in hypomania, I can accomplish huge amounts of artistic endeavors with great creativity. When in depression, I can’t do a thing. Avril – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have been discussing with a bipolar friend of mine whether we play better > music when we’re manic or depressed; in other words, do the creative juices > flow more readily when we’re in the grip of our disorder?  (He plays lead > guitar for a rock group, I play classical guitar).   We’re not thinking just > about music, but about writing, painting, sculpture, cooking, photography, > filming, raising a child — any area where human creativity manifests > itself..  Neither of us necessarily subscribes to the notion (one could call > it a myth) that all bipolars are creatively gifted.  But we all have > pursuits and my friend and I are wondering how the highs and the lows of the > illness affect these pursuits.  Your thoughts and experiences in these > matters are eagerly sought. > –Allegra

Before you buy.

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There is a great deal to be said about the relation between bi-polar disorder and creativity. As a BP II composer, writer, poet and artist, I would say that it has greatly enhanced my creativity — in both the depressive and hypo-manic phases of the illness. Dr. Kay Redfield Jamison wrote an excellent book on this subject called "Touched With Fire" which discusses many artists, writers, poets and composers who suffered from this illness, including Lord Byron, Hemmingway, and my personal favourite, Robert Schumann. I compose classical music, write music reviews & CD reviews and am working on a novel, write poetry and am working on a book of poetry and I also paint… so there is plenty of creative output there — however, my primary focus is composing. (oh… my instrument was classical guitar too!) Take care, Peter >I have been discussing with a bipolar friend of mine whether we play better >music when we’re manic or depressed; in other words, do the creative juices >flow more readily when we’re in the grip of our disorder?  (He plays lead >guitar for a rock group, I play classical guitar).   We’re not thinking just >about music, but about writing, painting, sculpture, cooking, photography, >filming, raising a child — any area where human creativity manifests >itself..  Neither of us necessarily subscribes to the notion (one could call >it a myth) that all bipolars are creatively gifted.  But we all have >pursuits and my friend and I are wondering how the highs and the lows of the >illness affect these pursuits.  Your thoughts and experiences in these >matters are eagerly sought. >–Allegra

Peter Amsel Composer, Writer, Poet, Artist Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. www.synapse.net/~ampl …listening for that still soft voice… (and sometimes ignoring it when I do hear it)

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I have been discussing with a bipolar friend of mine whether we play better music when we’re manic or depressed; in other words, do the creative juices flow more readily when we’re in the grip of our disorder?  (He plays lead guitar for a rock group, I play classical guitar).   We’re not thinking just about music, but about writing, painting, sculpture, cooking, photography, filming, raising a child — any area where human creativity manifests itself..  Neither of us necessarily subscribes to the notion (one could call it a myth) that all bipolars are creatively gifted.  But we all have pursuits and my friend and I are wondering how the highs and the lows of the illness affect these pursuits.  Your thoughts and experiences in these matters are eagerly sought. –Allegra

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