Depression Recovery

Question:

says… >I don’t think there is anything wrong with expecting or planning on your >family to help out financially with your wedding.  I think it all depends >on how you were raised and what type of family relationships you hold.  If >your parents have always helped you out (with college, cars, money, >etc…..) then I think it would be safe to assume that they would want to >help with the wedding.

Actually, mine was the opposite.  My mom always told me and my brother if we wanted anything (a car, college education), we would have to work for it.  We could always live with her, as long as we were attending college and working.   Other than that, she would not pay for car insurance, payments, gas, manitenance, or anything having to do with college.  I was always OK with this. When Mark & I got engaged, she was planning her own (3rd) wedding.  I know that I probably said 100 times to Mark "I think she should help pay for this".  I never asked her for money, a car, college money, etc (although she did provide a roof over my head off and on).  I began to feel very… what’s the right word… "old-fashioned?".  I really, really wanted her to say that she would help financially (I also wanted a dad to walk me down the aisle – weddings do weird things to you!).  Of course, it ended up that she did offer and did help pay. On the other hand, Mark (whose parents have always provided help with cars, money, college education, etc) just expected that they would pay for certain items, and they did.  It wasn’t even an issue between them – just understood.   Looking back on it, I really felt _entitled_ to her help.  I was really worried that she would spend so much money on her own wedding that there wouldn’t be enough left for mine.  I would have felt _less supported_ if she did not offer to help pay, even though Mark & I could have managed just fine without the help.  Maybe a lot of other brides have these same feelings, too?  Money isn’t always about what you can buy with it – it’s often what the money symbolizes that we get caught up in.   kellie

Response:

>On the flip side, my parents will more than likely live near one of us >(me or my sisters) rather than move in. (my mom likes to just burst >out saying "I’m living with you" once inawhile though) Jim however is okay >if they moved in too (but it would be crowded).  An additional note, jim >feels the obligation because "he’s the son", his parents didn’t do the >same thing with his sister (because she’s a girl and she’ll be taking care >of her husband’s parents…..) Whatever.

I find this statement interesting, because it has always been *my* experience that the daughter ends up caring for the parents.  Either way, it would be a good thing if we had a better system in general for caring for our older relatives without placing the burden on just one person (son or daughter).  Unfortunately, that’s not often the case. Good luck, Dawn — And from the shelter of my mind, Through the window of my eyes – I gaze beyond the rain-drenched streets To England, where my heart lies…            –Paul Simon–

Response:

We’re doing this right now.  I moved my great-aunt here in ‘93 to be with our family.  She is an "old maid school teacher" (her description) who left the family farm in MO and moved to NM to work in a rural district.  She later moved her father and sister there to take care of them until they died. She’s _extremely_ independent and proud (prideful) and it is difficult for her to ask for or accept help or her limitations. She was in a car accident at age 89 (other driver ran a stop sign) and stopped driving after that incident.  When I went to see her later that year, it was very sad to see how she lived.  After a week of furious cleaning and clutter-control, I asked her to think about moving to AL to be near my mom and my family (4 siblings) so that we could help with the cleaning, keeping the refrigerator free of fuzzy stuff, and keeping her entertained with visits from our families.  I originally moved in to help her with the transition and somewhere in the back of my mind, I always thought my mom (divorced, living alone) or sister (single mom, always in financial straits) would take over when it was "time" for me to marry.  Didn’t happen. Mark, bless him, agreed to try to make this work.  So now it’s the three of us — me, my beloved, and my 94 y.o. Aunt Jo (yep, I was gifted with her name.)  It has not been easy, but he does a *much* better job with it than I do.  People who really don’t know more personal details think we have it "lucky" since we don’t have rent/mortage payments. There’s much more to it that I try not to reveal, but it *is* overwhelming at times being the caregiver.  I am so thankful for Mark’s kind attitude and spirit, which have carried me through some of the more trying times. Since I am "the wife" and the "real" family member, I end up with the brunt of the work/complaints/criticisms — when it gets to me, he’s there to encourage me to not take it personally and remind me why I’m doing this. This may not be what Cherise had in mind: I think the question was about parents *eventually* moving in, but we’ve had this living arrangment from the beginning. I think it must be easier in later life, because I think we have missed out on some of the special times and freedoms that most couples get.  In some ways, it is like having a child perhaps — we can’t just go off for the weekend to have fun; we have to line up someone to bring dinner in and or "invite" Aunt Jo over for the weekend.  We end up self-censoring entertainment (VCR in the bedroom for any recent movies) because of the differences in not one but *two* generation gaps and there really isn’t the flexibility of just skipping dinner or having cereal when both of us are too tired to cook. (And a bunch of other compromises I won’t bother to mention) >You might want to re-think this one.  It really does depend on the >parent’s independence.  If the parent is even partial care (needs some >assistance showering, feeding, or is partially incontinent) it is a >BIG job.

Amen!  Six months after we married, my g-aunt fell and broke her hip. As selfish as this sounds, after I cried for her and knew that she would be okay, I bawled like a baby for *us*.  I knew that someday we’d have to deal with the invalid/health issues but just assumed that was years down the road.  God has a way of getting our attention sometimes.  She’s had an amazing recovery though and is now able to get around with a quad-cane.  We still have to work through some of her um, resentments, about her decreased mobility. When the anger and depression are directed towards us and she’s muttering about how horrible it is to get old, Mark has a wonderful way of reminding her of the alternative.  He has a talent for breaking through and getting her to laugh, and I think it’s important that at least one of you will be able to make light of situation when it gets too heavy. Ugh! This is all too somber.  But I did want to offer some of "the other side" because I’m there now. It’s easy to talk about in an abstract "we’ll probably be in our 50’s then" kind of way, but there’s a LOT I didn’t know and didn’t consider before I ended up where I am today. And even though you’ll know you are doing the "right" thing when the big picture is considered, there are days and *weeks* when the right thing and love for your parents aren’t going to be enough to overcome the weight of the role you’ve taken on. *That’s* when your spouse is going to be so important and your relationship will help you get through it together until things smooth out (for a while–there’s always another bump! The last thing I want to say on the matter is a message to those who’ve commented (or thought) "well, my brother/sister will probably end up taking on that responsibility" — whatever your situations at the time, *please* make an effort to give the caregiver an occasional break.  Even if they seem like they have it all under control and everyone is blissfully happy, make the offer to give them a few days or even a few hours where they don’t have to worry about their aged parents being alone, eating cold food, or feeling neglected.  You’ll be a saint in their eyes! I have links and reference materials on elder care and caregiving if anyone needs it. I hope I haven’t been too down on it — I really wouldn’t have it the other way (Aunt Jo in a home) but I thought hearing the other side might be helpful in your discussions with your partners.  There are *many* things to consider. Josie, married to Mark, the perfect man Psalms 37:37 — Josie mccraryj $ aspire.cs.uah.edu

Response:

> we would rather have her come live with >us than live in a home.

You might want to re-think this one.  It really does depend on the parent’s independence.  If the parent is even partial care (needs some assistance showering, feeding, or is partially incontinent) it is a BIG job.  I am a registered nurse and I work in a nursing home in addition to my full time job.   I too thought that I would never see my mother in a "home", however I have to look at it from her point of view.  If she were to live with me and my fiance,  would her friends come over?  Would she feel comfortable in my home?  There’s a possibility that she would become isolated from her peers and become lonely.  What if she were up all hours of the night?  What if she required more care than I could give her? Now if a parent has Alzheimer’s, dementia or organic brain syndrome…….that is total care, 24 hours a day!  Are you and your spouse going to be able to go to work and then come home and work taking care of someone for the rest of the day?  It is exhausting. They wander aimlessly, put stuff in odd places, forget that soap is for washing and not for eating.  The can become abusive or they are unable to talk, they are incontinent of both bladder and bowels. My point is: don’t make a firm decision regarding elderly parents. Keep an open mind and when (or hopefully IF!)  the time comes, don’t make your decision out of guilt and a promise you made 10-20 years ago when your parent was able to take care for themselves.  Sometimes a retirement community or a skilled nursing center is the best place for them to reside, even if you feel guilty about "putting" them there. How many times to we tell children:  "I know you don’t WANT it, but its what you NEED"  Love sometimes mean we give them what they need, not necessarily what they want. There are good "homes" (I hate that word) out there.  Quality care can be had with caring people.  Just do your homework before hand and be involved in your parents care.  Too many times I see elderly people placed in the nursing center and left, forgotten and not cared about. I try to give them extra attention.  But it doesn’t make up for family. I hope you never have to be faced with such a decision.  But the reality of it is that it happens all too often.

Response:

<snip> : Which brings up an interesting topic. Has anyone else had to deal with : the issue of marrying someone, *knowing* that "taking care of their : partner’s parents" will become on of those repsonsibilities? Or do <snip> : Cherise Yes. My in-laws will very most likely to 100% be living with us later. His mom has always told him to "marry someone who will listen to you so we can move in".  Whatever.  He feels a very strong obligation (wonder why?) to take care of his parents in their old age (they aren’t old yet). It will be interesting since we get along, but their style and the style that I was brought up are pretty different (i.e. how to clean, how to cook, what to eat, etc)  Of course I knew this before getting married so I’m getting myself adjusted. On the flip side, my parents will more than likely live near one of us (me or my sisters) rather than move in. (my mom likes to just burst out saying "I’m living with you" once inawhile though) Jim however is okay if they moved in too (but it would be crowded).  An additional note, jim feels the obligation because "he’s the son", his parents didn’t do the same thing with his sister (because she’s a girl and she’ll be taking care of her husband’s parents…..) Whatever. lib (sorry it was long)

Response:

>Which brings up an interesting topic. Has anyone else had to deal with >the issue of marrying someone, *knowing* that "taking care of their >partner’s parents" will become on of those repsonsibilities? Or do >people just not think about that now unless it’s an issue now?  It was >one of the things we discussed early on – esp knowing he was an only >child and I was one of 8 – I was concerned with the responsibilities >that involved. (Also the fact that we both get along very well with HIS >mom and would not mind her living with us, but while we get on fine >with my parents, neither of us fancies the idea of having my parents >live with us one day contributed to an early discussion of plans – and >warnings to my own sibs about our ability to take care of my parents.) >Anyone?

Good topic, Cherise (since we don’t have a separate "marriage" newsgroup). Mark’s parents are currently in this situation.  His maternal grandmother, who is 95, lives with them.  While I’m sure that they meant well when they decided to have her live there, it’s turned out to be a semi-bad situation.  Now that she’s lived there for 5 years, they can’t really justify moving her to a retirement home – unless medically necessary.  She’s fighting a lung cancer right now (never smoked) along with the radiation treatments, but she’s still strong as an ox.  In the meantime, she has to have someone home with her all of the time "just in case".  Mark’s mom is in her late 50’s, and would like to retire (she doesn’t need the money) but we are all worried that the stress of being home with Grandma all day will cause one or both of them to go crazy.   Plus Mark’s dad is extremely busy with work and community obligations, which makes their time together limited.  They can’t go on vacations (or even away for the night) without Grandma’s PT nurse or Mark’s maternal uncle and aunt to watch her.  It’s a difficult situation. Because of this, Mark’s parents are pretty adamant about not living with us or Mark’s brother and wife.  I could see them staying with us for a couple of weeks once a year if we moved any further away than we live now (this is OK with me).  As for my mom, she had to care for her senile grandmother in her youth, and has horrible memories of her because of it.  She’s already let us know that she’ll happily go into the home – no meals to cook, no yard to tend and a captive audience for her jokes and stories!  Of course, her husband is 11 years younger, so he may not be able to go with her until later! =)  I could see her coming to visit in the same way that Mark’s parents would (Mark is cool with this). I think this is one of those topics that no one wants to talk about, yet is crucially important to your marriage.  Here’s another one for discussion: Have you talked with your fiance about preparation for death?  Mark thinks I’m morbid – but I lost a close friend my age almost 2 years ago, and his poor parents had a real hard time planning the funueral.  What would Kenny have wanted?  Cremation or burial?  Full firefighter’s funeral or simple with family only?   I never want my family to worry about me like that.  I opted for cremation, which Mark could not accept (he’s Catholic).  So I told him, "fine, bury me – just don’t get a big headstone.  Donate a stone bench to the Zoo or park instead.  Donate any spare parts".  Mark hasn’t decided for himself yet, which drives me crazy (except for the donor thing – he wants that too). Anyone else? kellie, the morbid one (married to mark, the optimist one) 12/7/96

Response:

>Which brings up an interesting topic. Has anyone else had to deal with >the issue of marrying someone, *knowing* that "taking care of their >partner’s parents" will become on of those repsonsibilities?

We’re dealing with the same situation.  With his father having passed away in the last month, it’s been food for thought.  I have one brother and both my parents are really healthy and know already where they want to go if something should happen, he is an only child and we’re both leary about having her live with us.  (Extremely domineering woman.)  However, we’ve agreed that, should the issue arise, we would rather have her come live with us than live in a home.

Response:

: Which brings up an interesting topic. Has anyone else had to deal with : the issue of marrying someone, *knowing* that "taking care of their : partner’s parents" will become on of those repsonsibilities? Or do : people just not think about that now unless it’s an issue now? It’s something I didn’t explicitly think of when I proposed to Julian, but I knew then as now that we’ll be caring for his mother, *if* she wants to move back to Ontario or if we can handle a move to British Columbia when the time comes.  Although his mother is eleven years younger than my parents (same age as my godmother/aunt, but you wouldn’t know it), she has never been healthy, andhealth-wise is likely to need assistance much earlier.  Also, she is single and not likely to live with a partner or get married.  My parents are happily married, financially stable, own their own home, have another child living in the same city,e tc, etc, so they have less worries about this.  My fiance’s mother spends most of her time (including her social life) with her own parents, and we are most concerned about what will happen when they die.  (When one dies, the other will likely live with her.  It’s when both have passed away that we’re concerned about.( His mother loves to travel and has never liked the thought of a 9 to 5 office job — she’s always had more flexible employment (teaching piano, working as a gemologist, etc).  In the past two ro three years, she has "settled down" with an office job and a lot less travelling (although still managing to live in Vancouver — expensive city! — and cruise atleast twice a year!).  This is because she is concerned about turning inot a statistic — the poorest Canadians are single elderly women (particularly women of colour).  That said, if her health fails as it has in the past and is likely to, she will not be able to afford the assistance she needs — someone to help with the day to day tasks of housecleaning, groceries, and so on. We did discuss this relatively early on in our relationship, since it was at that time that his mother had moved to Vancouver.  I was also learning about her background/health problems, etc, and it came up.  But I must admit the most explicit discussions have been since our engagement, particularly in the last 6 – 8 months or so. I’ve said that of course she can come stay with us, and my fiance was surprised by my enthuiasm.  (She and I don’t always see eye to eye; we’re friendly and get along well on small talk, but other issues tend to make things difficult.  Not bad, but not as good a relationship as he has with my parents.  He and my mother especially "get on well".  I’ll always be my father’s biggest fan, so somehow this is fitting.  Anyway….)  I reminded him that we both have a strong comitment to "family" (int he abstract for him since he doenst’ really have one), and that I felt it very important — vital — for a family to do all they can to support one another.  Of course, I had it in my mind (still do), that we’d provide her with her own mini-apartment or "in-law suite", so that we weren’t all actually living together without some privacy.   We suspect his father will die before he actually needs day to day assistance.  His lifestyle and habits bring on nearly every risk factor for heart disease and strokes: he smokes, is obese, drinks, doens’t exercise mcuh (heck, niether do I), and is over 45.  He also gives off the impression that he’s not worried about the future, and that it’s none of our business.  (He also thinks our wedding is none of his, so I guess we’re even!).  SO, it’s really only his mother and my parents to worry about. : It was : one of the things we discussed early on – esp knowing he was an only : child and I was one of 8 – I was concerned with the responsibilities : that involved. (Also the fact that we both get along very well with HIS : mom and would not mind her living with us, but while we get on fine : with my parents, neither of us fancies the idea of having my parents : live with us one day contributed to an early discussion of plans – and : warnings to my own sibs about our ability to take care of my parents.) I’m one of two, but this analysis is familiar.  I am hoping that both my sister’s family and my family (Julian and I and whatever kids we have, plus his mother if the time comes), will both be in Toronto for my parents well before we need to worry about anyone taking care of them.  By the time that happens, we and our husbands will be able to share the "burden". My sister’s in-laws have another step-daughter (her husband’s sister) and "real" son of their own (her husband’s step-brother, who was always been treated as the "real" kid, the others being not quite good enough for theie father’s new wife….)  She, therefore, won’t have any family obligations of this sort from that side, and she is already "more likely" to be the caregiver in our family.  If one were to label us, I’m the career/goal oriented, life-in-the-fast-lane child, while she’s less of that (mostly because her health means she can’t join life ont he fast track and take on a career). I know of some couples who have gotten married without discussing these sorts of things — for some people, everything is so great in the relationship, it’s easy to just take your assumptions into a marriage, not realizing that they way you view something is not necessarilyt he same for your partner.  Luckily for us, not only do we realize what the potential family care obligations are, we have the same  philosophy — that we will love and support our parents to the best of our abilities, even if they have not always done the same.  It is part of our family creed, so to speak, and I’m happy to say that *my* parents have always done the same (they are *still* happily supporting my education habit (working on degree #2) , are funding much of the wedding, and are enjoying it all).  His parents are a different story, but we’re happy to do what we can.  For us (and this is solely a personal statement), that’s what family is about. If Julian’s mother will not return to Ontario, it is unlikely we would move to BC to be with her, since I do not have a mobile profession (I’d have to write the Bar again, possibly article again), and may even have a very Ontario-centric political career by that time, eliminating the possiblity of a move.  So, in that case, I guess we’d have to try to ‘replace’ our caregiving with something we can pay others to do. And we’d visit often, and have her visit, too, if she were able. –Barbara                                                                 Dal Law,                                                                 Class of ‘99

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> This segment could almost be a verbatim quote from a chapter in the > book The_Millionaire_Next_Door.  I’ve been reading it (selectively) > over the past few weeks.  It’s definitely a new point of view for me > to consider.  I’ve recommended it to my co-workers who have 20-something > (30-something) children, and I think the same thing applies here. > If you can buy (or borrow!) a copy, it’s worth browsing, especially > at a time when you’re likely to already be making substantial financial > changes in your life.

    I’d like to second Josie’s reccomendation of this book.  I haven’t finished it yet, but as she says it is a real eye-opener thus far.  I’d even go as far as to reccomend it to the 20-30 something children of those parents that Josie speaks of.  (Yes, another "me too" post, but in this case my experience has been much like Josie’s with _The_Millionaire_ Next_Door_). Best Wishes, Rachel Sanfordlyn Shreckengast — *The Mining Company:  WEDDINGS section – http://weddings.miningco.com *The WEDDING FRUGALITY Page – http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/1940/ *Wedding Dollars and Sense – http://www.wednet.com **ANNOUNCE**:  This week at miningco – Duties of the Best Man

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > My relationship with my >parents is that they will do whatever they can to always help me out, >without turning me into a helpless person in the process.  When my parents >get old and can’t take care of themselves, whether it’s physically or >financially, or both, I’ll be there to take care of them. > Will you put it in writing?  <vbg> > -Barb, MOB 8/31/96 > (Who’s been cozying up to a couple *nieces* and their families for *years* > so as to spread > the "visit Mom/Grandma/Auntie Barb in The Home"  obligations around in > case TLOTH and WonderBoy (her brother) don’t live anywhere near me in my > dotage.  Who knows where life will take a person? > And, yes, we all know that I’m doing it.  :-) > When TLOTH and I spoke about my being in The Home One Day, she said, "Oh, > MOM!  You’re not going to go to The Home.  I won’t let you!"  And I said, > ever so slyly, "Does that mean I can live with you?"  And SHE said, "We’ll > see when the time comes."  She’s quick, That Girl.  :-)

That’s why my mom said she had 8 kids – so she could spread the burden around . She’s threatened to live with each of us for a few months at a time, then picking up and moving to the next. In reality, one of my brother’s and his wife is likely to end up taking the greatest responsibility (mainly due to his position, location, and nature- ability to handle dad). I think I’ve gotten out of it since we will be taking care of my fiance’s mom, as he is an only child (she’s a very young healthy woman right now – early 50’s, so  it’ll be awhile before this comes up, but my parents are mid-60’s, still healthy, though I wouldn’t be surprised if the issue arises in the next 10 years). Which brings up an interesting topic. Has anyone else had to deal with the issue of marrying someone, *knowing* that "taking care of their partner’s parents" will become on of those repsonsibilities? Or do people just not think about that now unless it’s an issue now?  It was one of the things we discussed early on – esp knowing he was an only child and I was one of 8 – I was concerned with the responsibilities that involved. (Also the fact that we both get along very well with HIS mom and would not mind her living with us, but while we get on fine with my parents, neither of us fancies the idea of having my parents live with us one day contributed to an early discussion of plans – and warnings to my own sibs about our ability to take care of my parents.) Anyone? Cherise

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My relationship with my >parents is that they will do whatever they can to always help me out, >without turning me into a helpless person in the process.  When my parents >get old and can’t take care of themselves, whether it’s physically or >financially, or both, I’ll be there to take care of them.  

Will you put it in writing?  <vbg> -Barb, MOB 8/31/96 (Who’s been cozying up to a couple *nieces* and their families for *years* so as to spread the "visit Mom/Grandma/Auntie Barb in The Home"  obligations around in case TLOTH and WonderBoy (her brother) don’t live anywhere near me in my dotage.  Who knows where life will take a person?   And, yes, we all know that I’m doing it.  :-) When TLOTH and I spoke about my being in The Home One Day, she said, "Oh, MOM!  You’re not going to go to The Home.  I won’t let you!"  And I said, ever so slyly, "Does that mean I can live with you?"  And SHE said, "We’ll see when the time comes."  She’s quick, That Girl.  :-) That’s what >families are for…..love, companionship, brutal honesty, and SUPPORT.   >Leila >(& Larry, October 1998)

–

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>>I think, especially when they have the money to do it, that it is the >parents’ responsibility to throw the wedding. >> >I absolutely 100% DISAGREE with this statement.  I am not saying you are >spoiled <smile>  it is just that I believe that two adults who choose to marry >should be able to afford it.  If they cannot afford a grand wedding have a >smaller affair or save up for the day of your dreams.  To say parents have any >responsibility is wrong.

I second that disagreement!  I don’t think that parents are obligated in any way to pay for their children’s weddings.  If they want to help out, great, but when two adults make the decision to start a life together, they should be prepared to foot the bill for whatever grand ideas they have for their wedding. We chose to have a small civil wedding because it was what we could afford.  We didn’t do the diamond or poofy dress either.  Eventually, we’ll probably do a religious renewal of our vows.  I’d like that very much.  But no poofy dress. >I know for many people a wedding is a dream-day that simply MUST be done in >grand style.  I personally believe that the bride and groom have the >responsibility to have a wedding that they can afford……sooner or later >family has to step back.  Are parents "obligated" to pay your downpayment on a >house too, or the cost of having children?

Personally, I’m happy that we didn’t go nuts with the wedding.  Now that we’re having the baby, we’re finding that the grandparents are ecstatic and overjoyed.  We haven’t really asked for anything with the baby, but we have gotten so much. I still read this list because I just enjoy reading all the vents.  :-)   Sharon

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> >I think, especially when they have the money to do it, that it is the >parents’ responsibility to throw the wedding. >> > I absolutely 100% DISAGREE with this statement.  I am not saying you are > spoiled <smile>  it is just that I believe that two adults who choose to marry > should be able to afford it.  If they cannot afford a grand wedding have a > smaller affair or save up for the day of your dreams.  To say parents have any > responsibility is wrong.

This really depends on the cultures and customs of the people. In Iran, parents 99% of the time pay for all the wedding costs. It is pretty much unheard of for the kids to pay for the wedding. The brides family provides the location for the wedding. The groom’s family provides everything else. The bride goes shopping with her FMIL and chooses the diamond. The groom’s parents pay for the diamond. So in Iran, it is correct to say it is the parents’ responsibility to pay for the wedding. Afsi

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Well said Karen! Getting financial help for your wedding should simply > be appreciated, not expected! When my fiance asked me to marry him, we > decided to wait until June of 1999, since we would be paying for the > wedding ourselves and needed ample time to save for it. Just today my > mother offered to help us, because she knows how hard it will be for us > to save while I am in school, and she wants us to have a nice wedding. > I was SO greatful that she offered, and if by some chance she is not > able to help us out, we will just have to put the wedding off a little > longer, or work it out somehow. We’re still waiting until June of 1999, > even with my parent’s help, because I don’t want my wedding, in ANY > way, to hurt my parents financially. > Personally I had wanted to pay for it myself, because call me crazy, > but I think a wedding is somewhat more for the family than for the > couple getting married. It’s a chance for us to throw a big party for > my family to welcome my husband, and for his family to welcome me into > their family. None of that "it’s my day" for me…in my eyes, it’s > their day. Two families will be joining together that day, not just two > people. > Melissa

I don’t think anyone would say you’re being greedy, but that your decisions are to be commended. You might feel hurt too though, as the original poster does, when your FMIL says she’s contributing and then when all the plans are made, changes her mind without a reason. It’s not just the financial upset her decision may cause, it’s emotional. Money isn’t always about what it can buy, it’s also about the feeling that someone supports what you’re doing. Some parents pay for weddings, some pay for college, some don’t pay for these things at all. To offer that support and then suddenly revoke it when the issue isn’t financial straits for the donor smacks of a lack of emotional support which can be a lot more painful to face than choosing less expensive bridesmaid dresses. Just a thought. Amy (been there…it wasn’t the money, it’s the parents choosing not to support major decisions in your life that sucks) — The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom. – William Blake

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Well said Karen! Getting financial help for your wedding should simply be appreciated, not expected! When my fiance asked me to marry him, we decided to wait until June of 1999, since we would be paying for the wedding ourselves and needed ample time to save for it. Just today my mother offered to help us, because she knows how hard it will be for us to save while I am in school, and she wants us to have a nice wedding. I was SO greatful that she offered, and if by some chance she is not able to help us out, we will just have to put the wedding off a little longer, or work it out somehow. We’re still waiting until June of 1999, even with my parent’s help, because I don’t want my wedding, in ANY way, to hurt my parents financially. Personally I had wanted to pay for it myself, because call me crazy, but I think a wedding is somewhat more for the family than for the couple getting married. It’s a chance for us to throw a big party for my family to welcome my husband, and for his family to welcome me into their family. None of that "it’s my day" for me…in my eyes, it’s their day. Two families will be joining together that day, not just two people. Melissa – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(TempCmo) writes: >I absolutely 100% DISAGREE with this statement.  I am not saying you are >spoiled <smile>  it is just that I believe that two adults who choose to marry >should be able to afford it.  If they cannot afford a grand wedding have a >smaller affair or save up for the day of your dreams.  To say parents have any >responsibility is wrong. >They raised you, probably educated you….and they are supposed to pay for your >wedding now  also?  I know a wedding is a big day…and I think it is sweet >that some families elect to help out…….but they do not OWE any of us a >wedding.  Just because they can afford it does not make it their >responsibility. >I know for many people a wedding is a dream-day that simply MUST be done in >grand style.  I personally believe that the bride and groom have the >responsibility to have a wedding that they can afford……sooner or later >family has to step back.  Are parents "obligated" to pay your downpayment on a >house too, or the cost of having children? >Please believe me when I say I am not trying to "flame" you personally….I >happen to agree that families are great places of support for everyone.  I also >know that everyone has different upbringings.  I just had to state my opinion >on the "responsibility" issue….heck maybe your folks want to take a three >month tour of Europe instead of paying for anyone’s wedding.  <grin> To offer >is great..to be able to is wonderful….but NO ONE but the bride and grrom are >RESPONSIBLE for paying for/throwing a wedding.   >Just my .02 for what it is worth. >:) Karen

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>She treats him like a child, insists on lecturing him about his studies >though she has hardly ever kept her promise to pay for his books.  In >other words, even though he moved out of her house four or five years >ago, she treats him like a teenage child needing supervision.

Is she providing financial support to him? (You mention that you’re both FT students with PT jobs.)  Maybe her treatment of him reflects her concerns that he isn’t quite ready to take care of himself if she is also having to provide financial support to him months before he’s about to be married?  Even if it is ‘just’ book ($$$) money. >Anyhow, we thought we had the whole budget thing worked out.  We’re not, >that I can see, having an outrageous wedding.  The entire budget is about >$7500, $8000 if we *really* blow it.  The FH and I can afford about $1500, >which leaves $2000 each for each family.  They sounded ok with this >arrangement.

Here’s the key: Did you approach the parents *first* to see how much they might be willing to contribute BEFORE you made out the budget or did you cost out what you wanted, subtract out what you’re willing to put in, and assume that the parents would split the difference? If you put them on the spot about it, just kind of announcing one day that this would be their ’share’ they might have "sounded ok with this arrangement" (at the time) rather than debating the issue at the time.  (Maybe they needed time to review their accounts, talk over their level of support, make their decision together and *then* talk with you and their son about how costs might be shared?) [Snip comparison of family jobs/lifestyle choices] There’s simply no way you can compare the two families in terms of "ability to pay".  While you might think you have a good idea of their income and where they dispose of it, you never _really_ know and it isn’t your business to speculate about it.  You’ve already mentioned many different ways his family differs from yours (negative descriptions of activities snipped).  You just need to also accept that his family has a different way of spending their money.  They don’t owe you a stake in how that money is spent –especially since he’s left their home and has a degree of independence.  How they choose to spend their money on things that are important to them (cruise) shouldn’t be taken as a reflection on you or their son. *Yes* you can make it one, but you’re only going to feel bitter and resentful. It most likely won’t change anything, so just chalk it up to "the way things are" and work with the budget you *do* have available to you. >Anyhow, today they decided that there is no possible way they could >contribute $2000.  Why? I have no idea.  We’d already had the budget >discussion.  It’s not like it’s going to kill her, yet she wants to back >out of the entire affair for no apparent reason (but still, of course, >serve as a host!).

Since you have six months, you might have time to scale back your plans. Look at your budget and figure out where the difference can be absorbed or eliminated.  This might mean that you change the style of the reception (sit down dinner, buffet, hors d’oeuvers, punch-n-cake), the type of entertainment, the invitations, your attire, or your honeymoon.  There are a number of previous posts archived in Dejanews money by cutting corners without sacrificing the most important elements. Basically, rather than dwelling on the "lost" money and getting bummed out, you should focus on the fact that you’re still going to have an incredible wedding where you get to marry your fiance, supported by your friends and family, and have a great *marriage* on the day after the vows are said. > We could probably drege up $2500 for our part, and we’re both full-time > students with part time jobs!

Are you graduating soon?  Do you both depend on finacial support from your parents and/or campus financial aid?  (Don’t answer that here!)  More than one couple here on the newsgroup has postponed the big wedding bash until after they had worked long enough to save the money they wanted to spend on their big party.  The _event_ was important enough to them to make the sacrifice and delay the wedding until they could pay for it. Others who looked at their available funds, (un)likely contributions from others, and their ‘dream’ budget, made hard choices about what was most important in that dream and planned the wedding they could afford on their own. If money is tight, starting out in debt or just barely scraping by to have a wedding you can’t afford might (not will, but might) cause problems in the first few months of the marriage.  It sounds like you may already have a big adjustment to make in joining his family.  Tossing money resentments into the match is kind of dicey– especially if you’re going to end up assuming payments for old debt.   (Personal experience: I thought graduation was going to give me the BIG paycheck, so I didn’t  worry too much about those student loan payments that I’d need to pay back ‘one day’.  When you are just starting out, setting up a new home, routine and career and you’ve never had any experience managing your expenses and debt all by yourself — those student loans suddenly are a new evil with which to contend!) >Do we really have to seat this woman in the front row like an honored >guest?  At this point I’d like to seat HER in the 3rd row instead of his >father, and leave her off the invitations.  If I hear another insinuating >phrase about my hometown being not good enough for her I just MIGHT do it!

Be careful: A moment of pure joy and revenge might lead to a lifetime of HER getting the honor of telling everyone she knows how her horrible daughter-in-law was sososososo mean to HER …  Do not give her this upper hand!  She may use it.  The best thing you can do for what sounds like a tense relationship is to kill her with kindness.  It’s a rather evil, novel approach that sounds horrible to implement (be NICE? ACK!) but pays DIVIDENDS for the rest of your life becasue she will not be able to truthfully tell anyone one mean (true) fact about you. Her friends will just have to say "Margaret" (if that were her name) "you have just lost your mind. Erin has been nothing but kind and respectful to you.  You should count your blessings that your son has something like that to love him." It’s nasty and sometimes unpleasant to follow through on, but it works.  Even if she hates you, it works, because she will never be able to fault your treatment of her. >this.  She’s very thoughtful and proper about this sort of stuff and not >really lacking in money, either, though if it came to that I’d feel bad >because it’s really not her responsibility.

Well, it’s your wedding, not his parents and you don’t seem to think it isn’t their responsibility.  *If* she offers, accept it graciously and write a wonderful thank you note.  Don’t try to rub it in to his parents though.   You can let the resentment and bitterness eat at you and infect you with the yucky feelings that go along with them, so you can just say "That’s the way they are. I’m still going to have a great wedding, and I still get to marry my soulmate." There are lots of little ways to scale back your wedding plans. Don’t let this be a blight on what should be a happy time. — Josie mccraryj $ aspire.cs.uah.edu

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>I think, especially when they have the money to do it, that it is the >parents’ responsibility to throw the wedding. >>

I absolutely 100% DISAGREE with this statement.  I am not saying you are spoiled <smile>  it is just that I believe that two adults who choose to marry should be able to afford it.  If they cannot afford a grand wedding have a smaller affair or save up for the day of your dreams.  To say parents have any responsibility is wrong. They raised you, probably educated you….and they are supposed to pay for your wedding now  also?  I know a wedding is a big day…and I think it is sweet that some families elect to help out…….but they do not OWE any of us a wedding.  Just because they can afford it does not make it their responsibility. I know for many people a wedding is a dream-day that simply MUST be done in grand style.  I personally believe that the bride and groom have the responsibility to have a wedding that they can afford……sooner or later family has to step back.  Are parents "obligated" to pay your downpayment on a house too, or the cost of having children? Please believe me when I say I am not trying to "flame" you personally….I happen to agree that families are great places of support for everyone.  I also know that everyone has different upbringings.  I just had to state my opinion on the "responsibility" issue….heck maybe your folks want to take a three month tour of Europe instead of paying for anyone’s wedding.  <grin>  To offer is great..to be able to is wonderful….but NO ONE but the bride and grrom are RESPONSIBLE for paying for/throwing a wedding.   Just my .02 for what it is worth. Karen

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>I don’t think there is anything wrong with expecting or planning on your >family to help out financially with your wedding.  I think it all depends >on how you were raised and what type of family relationships you hold.  If >your parents have always helped you out (with college, cars, money, >etc…..) then I think it would be safe to assume that they would want to >help with the wedding. I think, especially when they have the money to do >it, that it is the parents’ responsibility to throw the wedding.  

This segment could almost be a verbatim quote from a chapter in the book The_Millionaire_Next_Door.  I’ve been reading it (selectively) over the past few weeks.  It’s definitely a new point of view for me to consider.  I’ve recommended it to my co-workers who have 20-something (30-something) children, and I think the same thing applies here. If you can buy (or borrow!) a copy, it’s worth browsing, especially at a time when you’re likely to already be making substantial financial changes in your life. — Josie mccraryj $ aspire.cs.uah.edu

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Anyhow, today they decided that there is no possible way they could >contribute $2000.  Why? I have no idea.  We’d already had the budget >discussion.  It’s not like it’s going to kill her, yet she wants to back >out of the entire affair for no apparent reason (but still, of course, >serve as a host!).  We could probably drege up $2500 for our part, and >we’re both full-time students with part time jobs! > Just because someone can "afford" to pay for something, doesn’t mean > they have an obligation to.  I for one would have been *very* > uncomfortable discussing our financial situation or wedding budget > with anyone especially my mom and dad.

In this case, I think the poster *does* have a reason to gripe. The parents already *agreed* to a certain amount. Backing out of that is wrong on their part – esp when there’s no real *reason* for it (I think this is why it’s frustrating – because they CAN afford it and SAID they would). I fully agree that no one has any obligation to the couple to pay for their wedding. It is however, rude to just say, after having agreed to a certain amount, and plans being made with that in mind, "Oh, we changed our minds." for the original poster: That said, I’m not sure how much you can do about it. You can’t force them to pay anything. So vent your frustrations and then figure out how you can scrounge up the extra money (assuming there’s not enough time to revamp the whole plan with the lower budget). It sounds like your FMIL has some major control issues. How does your fiance deal with her treating him like a teenager? I’m not sure you should exclude her as a sort of "revenge" no matter how tempting (I’m sure you shouldn’t). OTOH, she’s not behaving like a gracious MOG and host. Still, it might be better in the long run to let her have the status she wants if it’s not stepping too much on anyone else’s toes (ie they’re all acting as "hosts" right?) to avoid her having a *reason* to complain – she still may be difficult, but you don’t have to give her a reason to be.  Note, this may not be the best solution, it really depends on the others involved. Good luck. And feel free to vent! Cherise

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I don’t think there is anything wrong with expecting or planning on your family to help out financially with your wedding.  I think it all depends on how you were raised and what type of family relationships you hold.  If your parents have always helped you out (with college, cars, money, etc…..) then I think it would be safe to assume that they would want to help with the wedding. I think, especially when they have the money to do it, that it is the parents’ responsibility to throw the wedding.  I don’t think my view makes me out to be spoiled or whatever either…….My relationship with my parents is that they will do whatever they can to always help me out, without turning me into a helpless person in the process.  When my parents get old and can’t take care of themselves, whether it’s physically or financially, or both, I’ll be there to take care of them.  That’s what families are for…..love, companionship, brutal honesty, and SUPPORT.   Leila (& Larry, October 1998) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Anyhow, today they decided that there is no possible way they could >contribute $2000.  Why? I have no idea.  We’d already had the budget >discussion.  It’s not like it’s going to kill her, yet she wants to back >out of the entire affair for no apparent reason (but still, of course, >serve as a host!).  We could probably drege up $2500 for our part, and >we’re both full-time students with part time jobs! > Personally, I never assumed nor did I ask that anyone was going to pay > for any sort of wedding other than the two of us.  Since the plans > have been underway, my brother has offered to foot the bill for the > reahersal dinner, and my mom has offered to pay for the music.  My dad > has offered nothing.  And I don’t expect anything either.  And if for > some reason, my brother or mom decide at a later date that they aren’t > able to afford it, I have plans to cover it as well. (just means I > have to work my extra part time job a little while longer) > Just because someone can "afford" to pay for something, doesn’t mean > they have an obligation to.  I for one would have been *very* > uncomfortable discussing our financial situation or wedding budget > with anyone especially my mom and dad. > When I moved out of the house, that was it!  I have supported myself > in every way since then.  If you wish to continue with your wedding > the way you had originally planned it, then I would plan to cough up > the money needed.  

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While I agree that no one should expect others to pay for their wedding, this doesn’t appear to be the case here.  The happy couple decided on a budget, figured out what they could pay, and asked their families for help, which the families agreed to give.  To me, this seems perfectly reasonable.  Then, one family changed their mind, and the couple is upset, this too seems pretty reasonable.  There’s a big difference between not being able to help, and withdrawing help after it has already been offered.  I’m happy for you that you’re on your own and can and are paying for your own wedding, but that’s not an option for everyone, and we’re grateful for our parents’ support.  Try not to begrudge that.

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>Anyhow, today they decided that there is no possible way they could >contribute $2000.  Why? I have no idea.  We’d already had the budget >discussion.  It’s not like it’s going to kill her, yet she wants to back >out of the entire affair for no apparent reason (but still, of course, >serve as a host!).  We could probably drege up $2500 for our part, and >we’re both full-time students with part time jobs!

Personally, I never assumed nor did I ask that anyone was going to pay for any sort of wedding other than the two of us.  Since the plans have been underway, my brother has offered to foot the bill for the reahersal dinner, and my mom has offered to pay for the music.  My dad has offered nothing.  And I don’t expect anything either.  And if for some reason, my brother or mom decide at a later date that they aren’t able to afford it, I have plans to cover it as well. (just means I have to work my extra part time job a little while longer) Just because someone can "afford" to pay for something, doesn’t mean they have an obligation to.  I for one would have been *very* uncomfortable discussing our financial situation or wedding budget with anyone especially my mom and dad. When I moved out of the house, that was it!  I have supported myself in every way since then.  If you wish to continue with your wedding the way you had originally planned it, then I would plan to cough up the money needed.  

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Ok, I’ve had it, and I’ve just gotta vent at somebody besides my fiance, who’s feeling guilty enough already. Problem in point–his mother and stepfather.  We are dealing with 3 families here: my family, his mother and stepfather, and his father and stepmother. My family is enthusiastic. My mother’s attitude is "we had a nice wedding and we want yours to be special."  Compare this to his mother: "we didn’t have a very nice wedding and unless I get to be the center of attention you don’t deserve one either."  His father and stepmother, who are nice people but he’s not as close to them, are more excited and helpful about it than his mother is. We have done everything possible to make this woman (his mother) happy from the moment we started going out, 3 years ago.  We go to "family days" once a month or so, endure weekly phone calls so she can "make sure everything’s ok" (actually, lately since we’ve been leaving the modem on most of the time we get weekly bitchy voice mails, but whatever).  She treats him like a child, insists on lecturing him about his studies though she has hardly ever kept her promise to pay for his books.  In other words, even though he moved out of her house four or five years ago, she treats him like a teenage child needing supervision.  The "family events" are never pleasant–they usually involve going out with Grandma, and then mother bitching about everything grandma did all the way home. Cut to engagement.  About 5 minutes after being told (over breakfast), she prompts: and how would you like (finace’s half-sister) to be involved? Fortunately I really do want the kid involved or I’d have been peeved. It’s taken me 3 months to talk this woman out of wearing exactly the same color as the wedding party. Anyhow, we thought we had the whole budget thing worked out.  We’re not, that I can see, having an outrageous wedding.  The entire budget is about $7500, $8000 if we *really* blow it.  The FH and I can afford about $1500, which leaves $2000 each for each family.  They sounded ok with this arrangement. My parents have already paid about $2000 without complaint.  Now, they aren’t exactly rolling in the dough–my mother is an elementary school teacher, and my father makes about the same.  They have 2 kids at home and paid my tuition last quarter for 22 credit hours (since it was their fault I didn’t get my FAFSA in on time to get my loan, but that’s another subject.) His mother and stepfather make more than my parents and support one child. They’re going on a caribbean cruise in July.  They typically send their kid off for a couple months of the year to live with grandma when she has school vacation so they don’t have to deal with her.  Every year they take a month of work and have big family vacations for Christmas. Anyhow, today they decided that there is no possible way they could contribute $2000.  Why? I have no idea.  We’d already had the budget discussion.  It’s not like it’s going to kill her, yet she wants to back out of the entire affair for no apparent reason (but still, of course, serve as a host!).  We could probably drege up $2500 for our part, and we’re both full-time students with part time jobs! AAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH I could kill the woman.  Personally I’d just love to disinvite her and have his stepmother serve as the mother. Unfortunately we like his sister too much to see her pulled from the party. I personally would also love to never speak to this lady again. I’ve seen how she treats her children and certainly never want her anywhere near mine.  My fiance is, thank god, a lot like his father, who is a nice man.  We both wish we were closer to that part of his family. And I have nightmares of her forceing herself upon us for one of those 3-week-long xmas vacations she tortures the other relatives with.   Do we really have to seat this woman in the front row like an honored guest?  At this point I’d like to seat HER in the 3rd row instead of his father, and leave her off the invitations.  If I hear another insinuating phrase about my hometown being not good enough for her I just MIGHT do it! The only reason this probably won’t be a complete tragedy is that his mother’s mother will probably insist on paying her share when she hears this.  She’s very thoughtful and proper about this sort of stuff and not really lacking in money, either, though if it came to that I’d feel bad because it’s really not her responsibility. *sigh*  Ok, enough ranting for one night.  I have a midterm exam tomorrow and better go finish studying.  And anybody who actually read this far, thanks for listening. Erin (& Mike, 6/27/98)

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