The Worst President in History? One of America’s leading historians assesses George W. Bush George W. Bush’s presidency appears headed for colossal historical disgrace. Barring a cataclysmic event on the order of the terrorist attacks of September 11th, after which the public might rally around the White House once again, there seems to be little the administration can do to avoid being ranked on the lowest tier of U.S. presidents. And that may be the best-case scenario. Many historians are now wondering whether Bush, in fact, will be remembered as the very worst president in all of American history. From time to time, after hours, I kick back with my colleagues at Princeton to argue idly about which president really was the worst of them all. For years, these perennial debates have largely focused on the same handful of chief executives whom national polls of historians, from across the ideological and political spectrum, routinely cite as the bottom of the presidential barrel. Was the lousiest James Buchanan, who, confronted with Southern secession in 1860, dithered to a degree that, as his most recent biographer has said, probably amounted to disloyalty — and who handed to his successor, Abraham Lincoln, a nation already torn asunder? Was it Lincoln’s successor, Andrew Johnson, who actively sided with former Confederates and undermined Reconstruction? What about the amiably incompetent Warren G. Harding, whose administration was fabulously corrupt? Or, though he has his defenders, Herbert Hoover, who tried some reforms but remained imprisoned in his own outmoded individualist ethic and collapsed under the weight of the stock-market crash of 1929 and the Depression’s onset? The younger historians always put in a word for Richard M. Nixon, the only American president forced to resign from office. Now, though, George W. Bush is in serious contention for the title of worst ever. In early 2004, an informal survey of 415 historians conducted by the nonpartisan History News Network found that eighty-one percent considered the Bush administration a "failure." Among those who called Bush a success, many gave the president high marks only for his ability to mobilize public support and get Congress to go along with what one historian called the administration’s "pursuit of disastrous policies." In fact, roughly one in ten of those who called Bush a success was being facetious, rating him only as the best president since Bill Clinton — a category in which Bush is the only contestant. The lopsided decision of historians should give everyone pause. Contrary to popular stereotypes, historians are generally a cautious bunch. We assess the past from widely divergent points of view and are deeply concerned about being viewed as fair and accurate by our colleagues. When we make historical judgments, we are acting not as voters or even pundits, but as scholars who must evaluate all the evidence, good, bad or indifferent. Separate surveys, conducted by those perceived as conservatives as well as liberals, show remarkable unanimity about who the best and worst presidents have been. Historians do tend, as a group, to be far more liberal than the citizenry as a whole — a fact the president’s admirers have seized on to dismiss the poll results as transparently biased. One pro-Bush historian said the survey revealed more about "the current crop of history professors" than about Bush or about Bush’s eventual standing. But if historians were simply motivated by a strong collective liberal bias, they might be expected to call Bush the worst president since his father, or Ronald Reagan, or Nixon. Instead, more than half of those polled — and nearly three-fourths of those who gave Bush a negative rating — reached back before Nixon to find a president they considered as miserable as Bush. The presidents most commonly linked with Bush included Hoover, Andrew Johnson and Buchanan. Twelve percent of the historians polled — nearly as many as those who rated Bush a success — flatly called Bush the worst president in American history. And these figures were gathered before the debacles over Hurricane Katrina, Bush’s role in the Valerie Plame leak affair and the deterioration of the situation in Iraq. Were the historians polled today, that figure would certainly be higher. Even worse for the president, the general public, having once given Bush the highest approval ratings ever recorded, now appears to be coming around to the dismal view held by most historians. To be sure, the president retains a considerable base of supporters who believe in and adore him, and who reject all criticism with a mixture of disbelief and fierce contempt — about one-third of the electorate. (When the columnist Richard Reeves publicized the historians’ poll last year and suggested it might have merit, he drew thousands of abusive replies that called him an idiot and that praised Bush as, in one writer’s words, "a Christian who actually acts on his deeply held beliefs.") Yet the ranks of the true believers have thinned dramatically. A majority of voters in forty-three states now disapprove of Bush’s handling of his job. Since the commencement of reliable polling in the 1940s, only one twice-elected president has seen his ratings fall as low as Bush’s in his second term: Richard Nixon, during the months preceding his resignation in 1974. No two-term president since polling began has fallen from such a height of popularity as Bush’s (in the neighborhood of ninety percent, during the patriotic upswell following the 2001 attacks) to such a low (now in the midthirties). No president, including Harry Truman (whose ratings sometimes dipped below Nixonian levels), has experienced such a virtually unrelieved decline as Bush has since his high point. Apart from sharp but temporary upticks that followed the commencement of the Iraq war and the capture of Saddam Hussein, and a recovery during the weeks just before and after his re-election, the Bush trend has been a profile in fairly steady disillusionment. * * * * How does any president’s reputation sink so low? The reasons are best understood as the reverse of those that produce presidential greatness. In almost every survey of historians dating back to the 1940s, three presidents have emerged as supreme successes: George Washington, Abraham Lincoln and Franklin D. Roosevelt. These were the men who guided the nation through what historians consider its greatest crises: the founding era after the ratification of the Constitution, the Civil War, and the Great Depression and Second World War. Presented with arduous, at times seemingly impossible circumstances, they rallied the nation, governed brilliantly and left the republic more secure than when they entered office. Calamitous presidents, faced with enormous difficulties — Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, Hoover and now Bush — have divided the nation, governed erratically and left the nation worse off. In each case, different factors contributed to the failure: disastrous domestic policies, foreign-policy blunders and military setbacks, executive misconduct, crises of credibility and public trust. Bush, however, is one of the rarities in presidential history: He has not only stumbled badly in every one of these key areas, he has also displayed a weakness common among the greatest presidential failures — an unswerving adherence to a simplistic ideology that abjures deviation from dogma as heresy, thus preventing any pragmatic adjustment to changing realities. Repeatedly, Bush has undone himself, a failing revealed in each major area of presidential performance. * * * * THE CREDIBILITY GAP No previous president appears to have squandered the public’s trust more than Bush has. In the 1840s, President James Polk gained a reputation for deviousness over his alleged manufacturing of the war with Mexico and his supposedly covert pro-slavery views. Abraham Lincoln, then an Illinois congressman, virtually labeled Polk a liar when he called him, from the floor of the House, "a bewildered, confounded and miserably perplexed man" and denounced the war as "from beginning to end, the sheerest deception." But the swift American victory in the war, Polk’s decision to stick by his pledge to serve only one term and his sudden death shortly after leaving office spared him the ignominy over slavery that befell his successors in the 1850s. With more than two years to go in Bush’s second term and no swift victory in sight, Bush’s reputation will probably have no such reprieve. The problems besetting Bush are of a more modern kind than Polk’s, suited to the television age — a crisis both in confidence and credibility. In 1965, Lyndon Johnson’s Vietnam travails gave birth to the phrase "credibility gap," meaning the distance between a president’s professions and the public’s perceptions of reality. It took more than two years for Johnson’s disapproval rating in the Gallup Poll to reach fifty-two percent in March 1968 — a figure Bush long ago surpassed, but that was sufficient to persuade the proud LBJ not to seek re-election. Yet recently, just short of three years after Bush buoyantly declared "mission accomplished" in Iraq, his disapproval ratings have been running considerably higher than Johnson’s, at about sixty percent. More than half the country now considers Bush dishonest and untrustworthy, and a decisive plurality consider him less trustworthy than his predecessor, Bill Clinton — a figure still attacked by conservative zealots as "Slick Willie." Previous modern presidents, including Truman, Reagan and Clinton, managed to reverse plummeting ratings and regain the public’s trust by shifting attention away from political and policy setbacks, and by overhauling the White House’s inner circles. But Bush’s publicly expressed view that he has made no major mistakes, coupled with what even the conservative commentator William F. Buckley Jr. calls his "high-flown … read more »

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Bruce, Take a fucking break. If I (*we* ? ) wanted to know this shit, we can look it up too.

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Hey, where’s Ed? Anyone know? Freep

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Probably floating past an oil platform in the Gulf about now… Seriously though, are you OK Ellie? Chuck

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Well, unless I missed it, I don’t think he has posted since the water started running. Anyone know? Freep

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Probably floating past an oil platform in the Gulf about now… > Seriously though, are you OK Ellie? > Chuck

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> Well, unless I missed it, I don’t think he has posted since the water > started running. Anyone know? > Freep > Probably floating past an oil platform in the Gulf about now… > Seriously though, are you OK Ellie? > Chuck

Haven’t heard from him/seen him around. Not sure where his home is, but his shop -has- to be under water as it’s located right in the middle of the 10/610 beltway. A phone call returns "all ckts. are busy". What a mess & a shame! bk

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Well, unless I missed it, I don’t think he has posted since the water > started running. Anyone know? > Freep > > Probably floating past an oil platform in the Gulf about now… > > Seriously though, are you OK Ellie? > > Chuck > Haven’t heard from him/seen him > around. Not sure where his home > is, but his shop -has- to be > under water as it’s located right > in the middle of the 10/610 beltway. > A phone call returns "all ckts. are busy". > What a mess & a shame! > bk

"Prediction: one day Wilbur you are gonna piss off someone more pissed than EP who may just want to bomb you and your shop. And when it happens, I will have a hard time trying to stop laughing."                  - Ed Blum, 10/07/02 – Karma’s a bitch, ain’t it?  Am I permitted a smirk? Lord Valve American

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Had he mentioned to anyone that he was heading for the hills ahead of the storm, at least? Or do we think he went down with the ship? Lars

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> Karma’s a bitch, ain’t it?

It’s not Karma, it’s a hurricane. Karma: n : (Hinduism and Buddhism) the effects of a person’s actions that determine his destiny in his next incarnation Hurricane: n : A severe tropical cyclone originating in the equatorial regions of the Atlantic Ocean or Caribbean Sea or eastern regions of the Pacific Ocean, traveling north, northwest, or northeast from its point of origin, and usually involving heavy rains. See? >Am I permitted a smirk?

Sure. Best time to activate smirk muscles would be a few seconds after he shows up, safe. bk

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> Best time to activate > smirk muscles would be a few > seconds after he shows up, safe.

What if he doesn’t? Lars

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> Hey, where’s Ed? Anyone know? > Freep

I just heard a report live from N’awlins… The French Quarter is apparently built on the highest ground around… no pun intended… so it avoided the flooding. Many of the bars did not close at all during the storm… and plenty of patrons were observed outside with cocktails in hand, before, during, and after the storm. The report said one bar, with plywood coverings its windows, had painted a slogan on the plywood….  "We will not die sober"…. My guess is Elmis is/was there. Anyone truly interested can do a little research on the Net, find maps, find his shop on the map, and look at the "flood maps", etc. to see if his shop got hit. With power out for up to a month or more, we may not hear from Ed for a while.  If so, enjoy it while you can. Also, if you’re inclined to feel sorry for Blumby, understand that he is not able to bleat, howl, and blather on the AGA in his lifelong attempt at saving "lemming drones" from big business, the Bush Admin, and LV. Blumby repeatedly claims that his rantings and filth laden posts are his "entertainment"… so he may have to entertain himself another way for awhile. For HIS sake (and the sake of people whose amps are in his shop) I hope he has insurance…  but insurance is "big business" at it’s worst, so who knows…. gtski

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> Had he mentioned to anyone that he was heading for the hills ahead of > the storm, at least? Or do we think he went down with the ship? > Lars

Yo…   rats NEVER go down with the ship. gtski

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<snip> > gtski

Didja ever watch Chester the terrier and Spike the bulldog? bk

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I thought the hurrican was caused by God being angry at fags, or was it cause we created idols and placed them in 7-11s?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Well, unless I missed it, I don’t think he has posted since the water > > started running. Anyone know? > > Freep > > > Probably floating past an oil platform in the Gulf about now… > > > Seriously though, are you OK Ellie? > > > Chuck > Haven’t heard from him/seen him > around. Not sure where his home > is, but his shop -has- to be > under water as it’s located right > in the middle of the 10/610 beltway. > A phone call returns "all ckts. are busy". > What a mess & a shame! > bk >"Prediction: one day Wilbur you are gonna piss off someone >more pissed than EP who may just want to bomb you and your >shop. And when it happens, I will have a hard time trying >to stop laughing." >                 – Ed Blum, 10/07/02 – >Karma’s a bitch, ain’t it?  Am I permitted a smirk? >Lord Valve >American

Yep, you got an honest smirk. I hope the decent people over at Peavey are okay. Anybody got word on how they’re doing? Ron Yeah, that Ron.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> > Well, unless I missed it, I don’t think he has posted since the water >> > started running. Anyone know? >> > Freep >> > > Probably floating past an oil platform in the Gulf about now… >> > > Seriously though, are you OK Ellie? >> > > Chuck >> Haven’t heard from him/seen him >> around. Not sure where his home >> is, but his shop -has- to be >> under water as it’s located right >> in the middle of the 10/610 beltway. >> A phone call returns "all ckts. are busy". >> What a mess & a shame! >> bk >"Prediction: one day Wilbur you are gonna piss off someone >more pissed than EP who may just want to bomb you and your >shop. And when it happens, I will have a hard time trying >to stop laughing." >                 – Ed Blum, 10/07/02 – >Karma’s a bitch, ain’t it?  Am I permitted a smirk? >Lord Valve >American >Yep, you got an honest smirk. >I hope the decent people over at Peavey are okay. Anybody got word on how >they’re doing? >Ron >Yeah, that Ron.

RonSonic!   Long time. I didn’t realize that Peavey was in that area at all. I would assume that Peavey wouldn’t be foolish enough to build anything on low ground, so I somehow doubt that they got flooded out. Although, I wouldn’t bet my life on that. Pete — I saved your mechanical man from certain damnation. For his frail, electronic eyes had gazed upon the impenetrable! He was an unwilling beholder to the impossible!  –Dr. Orpheus

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>RonSonic!   >Long time.

Yes, too long. Hi Ron!! >I didn’t realize that Peavey was in that area at all. >I would assume that Peavey wouldn’t be foolish enough to build >anything on low ground, so I somehow doubt that they got flooded out.

Isn’t the whole of Mississippi built on low ground? -DC

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> I thought the hurrican was caused by God being angry at fags

Well, N.O. *is* unquestionably the Gomorrah of the USA; now, if our undisputed Sodom, San Francisco, *also* goes away somehow this week, well… I’m not predicting it, mind; it’s just that, well, if people are going to go bringing the Wrath of God into the discussion… Lars

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Shepard Smith on Fox News, who yesterday was overly optimistic from his reports in the French Quarter, appears to be the first on the news networks to actually get it: IT’S OVER FOR NEW ORLEANS. Please donate. Smith said martial law has been declared, and all journalists have been ordered out of the city (no other confirmation on expulsion of journalists, but authorities are likely too busy to arrest them yet anyway). The situation is getting exponentially worse, there are no resources, it is only going to become more and more "impossible to sustain life" in New Orleans. There are people dying there right now, trapped by the rising floodwaters — up to a total of approximately 97,000 people, according to the mayor’s own (obviously rough) estimate. The worst-case scenario is unfolding, and New Orleans will be uninhabitable for the foreseeable future. MeanBoneII’s diary :: :: and Plaquemines Parish are under martial law and the floodwaters are expected to rise to lake level. UPDATE 2: The mayor has now ordered an emergency evacuation of the entire city. Important to note: Mayor Nagin estimated that about 80% of the city’s 485,000 people evacuated before the storm. That has to be a very rough estimate and HOPEFULLY VERY LOW. If about 20% of the residents are still in the city, that’s approximately 97,000 people. Up to 20,000 (see Update 6) or so are at the Superdome. That could leave about 77,000 trapped in homes rapidly flooding with toxic water, with no food or water or way to get out. UPDATE 3: Bush is finally canceling his vacation and speeches in front of hand-picked audiences and returning to Washington as the enormity of this disaster becomes clear. Somebody apparently told him it’s time to look like he’s in charge again. UPDATE 4: Conditions at the Superdome are drastically deteriorating. Local reporter on scene tells CNN a man intentionally jumped to his death from the second level balcony in the dome. Water is rising around the dome, as victims with serious injuries are brought to the dome where they could soon be trapped. UPDATE 5: There are numerous reports of rampant "looting" in the city, but given the extreme life-or-death nature of these conditions, the vast majority of the thousands still in New Orleans are certainly just desperately grabbing any food, water and supplies they can get to stay alive. UPDATE 6: Jeanne Meserve on CNN reports it is now estimated 15,000-20,000 people are at the Superdome. Rescuers are bringing victims to the dome, which is still above but surrounded by rising water. Hopefully the mayor was way off on his guess that nearly 100,000 people were in New Orleans when the storm hit yesterday. FINAL UPDATE (diary is overbloated): WWLTV is reporting that Jefferson Parish President says residents will probably be allowed back in town in a week, with identification only, but only to get essentials and clothing. They will then be asked to leave and not come back for one month. I’d guess that the word "probably" is being used loosely and "asked" really means "ordered." Looks like wishful thinking. Please donate for those victims who have lost everything but their lives. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I thought the hurrican was caused by God being angry at fags > Well, N.O. *is* unquestionably the Gomorrah of the USA; now, if our > undisputed Sodom, San Francisco, *also* goes away somehow this week, > well… > I’m not predicting it, mind; it’s just that, well, if people are going > to go bringing the Wrath of God into the discussion… > Lars

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>From Steve Gregory at the Weather Underground:

40,000-50,000; people in the superdome, including seriously injured people, and evacuees from the Hospitals. There are no running water or sewage facilities–and no power. Temperatures are in the 90’s within the building. One man just committed suicide by jumping. ‘Unrest’ is growing within the superdome–and there are now military as well civilian police on the scene. There are now several major fires in view of city. There is evidently a fair amount of oil and gas floating on the flood waters. Water is still rising and the Mayor is just now being evacuated by helicopter as City hall is now surrounded. This is turning into a ’slow motion version’ of the worst case scenario for New Orleans. Untold numbers of dead – likely in the hundreds and possibly near 1,000 or more. LOCAL UPDATES (Text only) & LIVE STREAMING VIDEO Better Streaming Video. (IE-PC only HT: Pandora in comments) DarkSyde’s diary :: :: Water is still rising and the Mayor is just now being evacuated by helicopter as City hall is now surrounded by water that can only be reached by small boat, water is about 3 feet deep at the steps of City Hall.  80% of New Orleans is totally submerged now, and will likely become 100% submerged tonight. The depth of the water in the BIZ district is around 6-10 inches at this time. This is a result of 2 MAJOR BREACHES OF THE LEVEE.  The first one ,is about 400 feet long, and appears to have given way around 9PM last night.  The Corp of Engineers have now said there is also a second breach as well.  Within the hour the Pentagon will be taking over the coordination and manpower/machinery to assist in closing the 2 breaches. The COE indicates there is no other way to resolve the problem, and they will be using huge cranes, barges of sand and intend to ‘plug’ the breached area.  Until that is accomplished, News Orleans will continue to fill up with water. No time table is known on how long it will take. The COE indicated they have ‘great concern’ for the a specific pumping station – the largest in the world — and it will be eventually used to drain the water out of the city after the levee has been repaired. This is turning into a ’slow motion version’ of the worst case scenario for New Orleans.  Over 1,200 people have been rescued by 40 coast guard recovery helicopters where people are standing on roofs – since yesterday.  Untold numbers of dead – likely in the hundreds and possibly near 1,000 or more. Disease is expected to take a heavy toll within days.  This could claim thousands of lives.  The key seemingly is to somehow to evacuate everyone from the city.  Whether this can be done I have no clue. ELSEWHERE: Video  from the air just now showed the complete devastation of the coastal area from Mobile west to Gulfport.  An oil platform (LARGE) was brought across D auphin island and dumped to the north of the island just south of that mouth of Mobile Bay. TROPICS: A strong wave -0 that briefly was classified as a Tropical depression, is drifting WNW, and showing no sign or organizing. However, the global models are indicating that conditions will become more conducive for development of this system, located about 1500 miles east of the Lesser Antilles. Steve didn’t come right out and say it at the end there. But his concern is that another storm, even a moderate thundershower, would screw up the levies more at this point. A major tropical depression hitting the area now would kill a ton of people.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->RonSonic!   >Long time. >Yes, too long. Hi Ron!! >I didn’t realize that Peavey was in that area at all. >I would assume that Peavey wouldn’t be foolish enough to build >anything on low ground, so I somehow doubt that they got flooded out. >Isn’t the whole of Mississippi built on low ground? >-DC

I’ve never visited New Orleans, but apparently the French settled on higher land.  Which you logically do when you’re dealing with a river, especially one that size. I’m sure that it’s much flatter land in Loisanna, but farther up north here, many of the towns bordering along the river are *way* above sea level.  So the Missisippi itself is low, but not everything near it is. I’m sure that — I saved your mechanical man from certain damnation. For his frail, electronic eyes had gazed upon the impenetrable! He was an unwilling beholder to the impossible!  –Dr. Orpheus

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> Many of the bars did not close at all during the storm… and plenty > of patrons were observed outside with cocktails in hand, before, > during, and after the storm. The report said one bar, with plywood > coverings its windows, had painted a slogan on the plywood….  "We > will not die sober"…. > My guess is Elmis is/was there.

If he was, he’s stranded there now, and with the levee broke (cue Led Zeppelin) the FQ is under water half way up the buildings, too. Actually, it might be worse this way, once the mosquitoes and so on get up to speed the next coupla days. Myself, I’d rather drown, than die of cholera. Do you think that if he got out ahead of the posse, he’d have written in from wherever he is by now? He is an idiot, but he’s OUR idiot — sort of a mascot. And if he doesn’t make it out, Zootwoman might decide that SHE’S the village idiot now. Lars

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>RonSonic!   >>Long time. >Yes, too long. Hi Ron!! >>I didn’t realize that Peavey was in that area at all. >>I would assume that Peavey wouldn’t be foolish enough to build >>anything on low ground, so I somehow doubt that they got flooded out. >Isn’t the whole of Mississippi built on low ground? >-DC >I’ve never visited New Orleans, but apparently the French settled on >higher land.  Which you logically do when you’re dealing with a river, >especially one that size. >I’m sure that it’s much flatter land in Loisanna, but farther up north >here, many of the towns bordering along the river are *way* above sea >level.  So the Missisippi itself is low, but not everything near it >is. >I’m sure that

Damn shortcut key sent that before I finished! I’m sure that New Orleans was settled originally for trade purposes along the big river, and that the people who expanded the area chose their land less carefully. Pete — I saved your mechanical man from certain damnation. For his frail, electronic eyes had gazed upon the impenetrable! He was an unwilling beholder to the impossible!  –Dr. Orpheus

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Thousands of Hurricane Katrina refugees in New Orleans’ 10 shelters must be evacuated, given the deteriorating situation, says Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco. "The situation is untenable,” Blanco said at a news conference on Tuesday. "It’s just heartbreaking.” The storm’s devastating impact on New Orleans is worsening as floodwater from breakdowns in the levee system steadily fills the city’s streets. Blanco said the power could be out for a long time, and with the break of a major water main, no drinkable water is available. A historical marina in the city was in flames, with no crews available to extinguish the blaze, as officials worked feverishly to search for residents who waited to be rescued. New Orleans had appeared to dodge a catastrophe on Monday despite forecasters’ predictions that the city, which lies mostly below sea level, would be overwhelmed by Katrina. But by Tuesday, conditions began to deteriorate when the water began to steadily rise. Water lapped at the edge of the city’s historic French Quarter after failed pumps and levees sent water from nearby Lake Pontchartrain coursing through the streets. "It’s a very slow rise, and it will remain so until we plug that breach. I think we can get it stabilized in a few hours," Terry Ebbert, New Orleans’ homeland security chief told The Associated Press. Officials are planning to use helicopters to drop sandbags on the breach to stop the flow of water, which would normally have been evacuated by a network of pumps. The city of 480,000 was mostly evacuated over the weekend as Katrina closed in, but some refused to leave — or else they were too poor or sick to go on their own. The U.S. Coast Guard has dispatched helicopters to pluck residents from the roofs of their homes where they sought refuge. Boats are also being used. An estimated 40,000 homes in St. Bernard Parish, just east of New Orleans, are submerged. In many instances, people had climbed into their attics to escape rising floodwaters. In those cases, either residents, police or the U.S. Coast Guard were forced to cut holes in their roofs to allow escape. There were stories of some people blasting exit holes in their roofs with shotguns. While bodies were seen floating in the streets, no deaths have officially been confirmed yet. Mayor Ray Nagin said 80 per cent of the city was underwater, and in some places, the water was nearly seven metres deep. Tulane University Medical Center Vice President Karen Troyer-Caraway told CNN earlier Tuesday that officials were considering evacuating its 1,000 patients because the downtown hospital was surrounded by 6 feet of water. "The water is rising so fast I cannot begin to describe how quickly it’s rising," she said. Looting breaks out Meanwhile, looting broke out in New Orleans’ Canal Street, the main thoroughfare in the central business district, which was being described as a literal canal this afternoon. Looters waded through hip-deep water and cleaned out abandoned clothing and jewellery stores, sometimes in full view of passing police officers. At a Walgreen’s drug store in the French Quarter, people were seen running out with baskets and coolers brimming with soft drinks, chips and diapers. The crowd scattered when a young boy noticed police and screamed: "86! 86!" — the radio code for police. One man who had an estimated 10 pairs of jeans in his arms was asked if he was trying to save items from his store. "No," the man shouted, "that’s EVERYBODY’S store." Another woman dismissed the suggestion that she and her husband were stealing from a Winn-Dixie supermarket as she left with a plastic bag filled with items. "It’s about survival right now," she told AP. "We got to feed our children. I’ve got eight grandchildren to feed." Residents weren’t the only people raiding abandoned stores. Two police officers stood guard outside a drug store on Canal Street as Ritz-Carlton Hotel employees packed large laundry bins full of medication, snack foods and bottled water. "This is for the sick," Officer Jeff Jacob said. "We can commandeer whatever we see fit, whatever is necessary to maintain law."

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> Damn shortcut key sent that before I finished!

That happened to me once, and the dumb people all decided I was secretly Freep. Lars

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->RonSonic!   >Long time. >Yes, too long. Hi Ron!! >I didn’t realize that Peavey was in that area at all. >I would assume that Peavey wouldn’t be foolish enough to build >anything on low ground, so I somehow doubt that they got flooded out. >Isn’t the whole of Mississippi built on low ground? >-DC

It may all depend on how high the high ground they may have built on is.  I’ve heard reports of water 20′ deep in spots, and rising. Ken Wilson Proud Owner of Lord Valve, PMG, John Wheaton, Claude Lucas,  Freep the Xenophobe, Chuck, the rest of the  Union of Rightwing Idiots Needing Explanations (URINE)  and, at his own request, Karl Rovershank (aka Lars from Mars) Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/

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courageously avow: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Many of the bars did not close at all during the storm… and plenty > of patrons were observed outside with cocktails in hand, before, > during, and after the storm. The report said one bar, with plywood > coverings its windows, had painted a slogan on the plywood….  "We > will not die sober"…. > My guess is Elmis is/was there. >If he was, he’s stranded there now, and with the levee broke (cue Led >Zeppelin) the FQ is under water half way up the buildings, too. >Actually, it might be worse this way, once the mosquitoes and so on get >up to speed the next coupla days. Myself, I’d rather drown, than die of >cholera. >Do you think that if he got out ahead of the posse, he’d have written >in from wherever he is by now? He is an idiot, but he’s OUR idiot — >sort of a mascot. And if he doesn’t make it out, Zootwoman might decide >that SHE’S the village idiot now. >Lars

Your compassion for fellow human beings is duly noted. Ken Wilson Proud Owner of Lord Valve, PMG, John Wheaton, Claude Lucas,  Freep the Xenophobe, Chuck, the rest of the  Union of Rightwing Idiots Needing Explanations (URINE)  and, at his own request, Karl Rovershank (aka Lars from Mars) Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/

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November 14, 2004 FRANK RICH On ‘Moral Values,’ It’s Blue in a Landslide FAREWELL to Swift boats and "Shove it!," to Osama’s tape and Saddam’s missing weapons, to "security moms" and outsourced dads. They’ve all been sent to history’s dustbin faster than Ralph Nader memorabilia was dumped on eBay. In their stead stands a single ambiguous phrase coined by an anonymous exit pollster: "Moral values." By near universal agreement the morning after, these two words tell the entire story of the election: it’s the culture, stupid. "It really is Michael Moore versus Mel Gibson," said Newt Gingrich. To Jon Stewart, Nov. 2 was the red states’ revenge on "Will & Grace." William Safire, speaking on "Meet the Press," called the Janet Jackson fracas "the social-political event of the past year." Karl Rove was of the same mind: "I think it’s people who are concerned about the coarseness of our culture, about what they see on the television sets, what they see in the movies …" And let’s not even get started on the two most dreaded words in American comedy, regardless of your party affiliation: Whoopi Goldberg. There’s only one problem with the storyline proclaiming that the country swung to the right on cultural issues in 2004. Like so many other narratives that immediately calcify into our 24/7 media’s conventional wisdom, it is fiction. Everything about the election results – and about American culture itself – confirms an inescapable reality: John Kerry’s defeat notwithstanding, it’s blue America, not red, that is inexorably winning the culture war, and by a landslide. Kerry voters who have been flagellating themselves since Election Day with a vengeance worthy of "The Passion of the Christ" should wake up and smell the Chardonnay. The blue ascendancy is nearly as strong among Republicans as it is among Democrats. Those whose "moral values" are invested in cultural heroes like the accused loofah fetishist Bill O’Reilly and the self-gratifying drug consumer Rush Limbaugh are surely joking when they turn apoplectic over MTV. William Bennett’s name is now as synonymous with Las Vegas as silicone. The Democrats’ Ashton Kutcher is trumped by the Republicans’ Britney Spears. Excess and vulgarity, as always, enjoy a vast, bipartisan constituency, and in a democracy no political party will ever stamp them out. If anyone is laughing all the way to the bank this election year, it must be the undisputed king of the red cultural elite, Rupert Murdoch. Fox News is a rising profit center within his News Corporation, and each red-state dollar that it makes can be plowed back into the rest of Fox’s very blue entertainment portfolio. The Murdoch cultural stable includes recent books like Jenna Jameson’s "How to Make Love Like a Porn Star" and the Vivid Girls’ "How to Have a XXX Sex Life," which have both been synergistically, even joyously, promoted on Fox News by willing hosts like Rita Cosby and, needless to say, Mr. O’Reilly. There are "real fun parts and exciting parts," said Ms. Cosby to Ms. Jameson on Fox News’s "Big Story Weekend," an encounter broadcast on Saturday at 9 p.m., assuring its maximum exposure to unsupervised kids. Almost unnoticed in the final weeks of the campaign was the record government indecency fine levied against another prime-time Fox television product, "Married by America." The $1.2 million bill, a mere bagatelle to Murdoch stockholders, was more than twice the punishment inflicted on Viacom for Janet Jackson’s "wardrobe malfunction." According to the F.C.C. complaint, one episode in this heterosexual marriage-promoting reality show included scenes in which "partygoers lick whipped cream from strippers’ bodies," and two female strippers "playfully spank" a man on all fours in his underwear. "Married by America" is gone now, but Fox remains the go-to network for Paris Hilton ("The Simple Life") and wife-swapping ("Trading Spouses: Meet Your New Mommy"). None of this has prompted an uprising from the red-state Fox News loyalists supposedly so preoccupied with "moral values." They all gladly contribute fungible dollars to Fox culture by boosting their fair-and-balanced channel’s rise in the ratings. Some of these red staters may want to make love like porn stars besides. (Not that there’s anything wrong with that.) An ABC News poll two weeks before the election found that more Republicans than Democrats enjoy sex "a great deal." The Democrats’ new hero, Illinois Senator-elect Barack Obama, was assured victory once his original, ostentatiously pious Republican opponent, Jack Ryan, dropped out of the race rather than defend his taste for "avant-garde" sex clubs. The 22 percent of voters who told pollsters that "moral values" were their top election issue – 79 percent of whom voted for Bush-Cheney – corresponds almost exactly to the number of voters (23 percent) who describe themselves as born-again or evangelical Christians. They are entitled to their culture, too, and their own entertainment industry. And their own show-biz scandals. The Los Angeles Times reported this summer that Paul Crouch, the evangelist who founded the largest Christian network, Trinity Broadcasting Network, vehemently denied a former employee’s accusation that the two had had a homosexual encounter – though not before paying the employee a $425,000 settlement. Not so incidentally, Trinity joined Gary Bauer and Fox News as prime movers in "Redeem the Vote," the Christian-rock alternative to MTV’s "Rock the Vote." But the distance between this hard-core red culture and the majority blue culture is perhaps best captured by Tom Coburn, the newly elected Republican senator from Oklahoma, lately famous for discovering "rampant" lesbianism in that state’s schools. As a congressman in 1997, Mr. Coburn attacked NBC for encouraging "irresponsible sexual behavior" and taking "network TV to an all-time low with full frontal nudity, violence and profanity being shown in our homes." The broadcast that prompted his outrage on behalf of "parents and decent-minded individuals everywhere" was the network’s prime-time showing of Steven Spielberg’s "Schindler’s List." It’s in the G.O.P.’s interest to pander to this far-right constituency – votes are votes – but you can be certain that a party joined at the hip to much of corporate America, Mr. Murdoch included, will take no action to curtail the blue culture these voters deplore. As Marshall Wittman, an independent-minded former associate of both Ralph Reed and John McCain, wrote before the election, "The only things the religious conservatives get are largely symbolic votes on proposals guaranteed to fail, such as the gay marriage constitutional amendment." That amendment has never had a prayer of rounding up the two-thirds majority needed for passage and still doesn’t. Mr. Wittman echoes Thomas Frank, the author of "What’s the Matter With Kansas?," by common consent the year’s most prescient political book. "Values," Mr. Frank writes, "always take a backseat to the needs of money once the elections are won." Under this perennial "trick," as he calls it, Republican politicians promise to stop abortion and force the culture industry "to clean up its act" – until the votes are counted. Then they return to their higher priorities, like cutting capital gains and estate taxes. Mr. Murdoch and his fellow cultural barons – from Sumner Redstone, the Bush-endorsing C.E.O. of Viacom, to Richard Parsons, the Republican C.E.O. of Time Warner, to Jeffrey Immelt, the Bush-contributing C.E.O. of G.E. (NBC Universal) – are about to be rewarded not just with more tax breaks but also with deregulatory goodies increasing their power to market salacious entertainment. It’s they, not Susan Sarandon and Bruce Springsteen, who actually set the cultural agenda Gary Bauer and company say they despise. But it’s not only the G.O.P.’s fealty to its financial backers that is predictive of how little cultural bang the "values" voters will get for their Bush-Cheney votes. At 78 percent, the nonvalues voters have far more votes than they do, and both parties will cater to that overwhelming majority’s blue tastes first and last. Their mandate is clear: The same poll that clocked "moral values" partisans at 22 percent of the electorate found that nearly three times as many Americans approve of some form of legal status for gay couples, whether civil unions (35 percent) or marriage (27 percent). Do the math and you’ll find that the poll also shows that for all the G.O.P.’s efforts to court Jews, the total number of Jewish Republican voters in 2004, while up from 2000, was still some 200,000 less than the number of gay Republican voters. When Robert Novak writes after the election that "the anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, socially conservative agenda is ascendant, and the G.O.P. will not abandon it anytime soon," you have to wonder what drug he is on. The abandonment began at the convention. Sam Brownback, the Kansas senator who champions the religious right, was locked away in an off-camera rally across town from Madison Square Garden. Prime time was bestowed upon the three biggest stars in post-Bush Republican politics: Rudy Giuliani, John McCain and Arnold Schwarzenegger. All are supporters of gay rights and opponents of the same-sex marriage constitutional amendment. Only Mr. McCain calls himself pro-life, and he’s never made abortion a cause. None of the three support the Bush administration position on stem-cell research. When the No. 1 "moral values" movie star, Mel Gibson, condemned the Schwarzenegger-endorsed California ballot initiative expanding and financing stem-cell research, the governor and voters crushed him like a girlie-man. The measure carried by 59 percent, which is consistent with national polling on the issue. If the Republican party’s next round of leaders are all cool with blue culture, why should Democrats run after the red? Received Washington wisdom has it that the only Democrat who will ever be … read more »

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    What adulterous president got a blow job in our White House, again?  That was a "Blue State" electorate pResident, right?  Yeah … that’s what I thought.  And who lied about it under oath?  Yeah, that’s right … that’s what I thought.  And who pardoned convicted drug traffickers, drug dealers, money launderers, corrupt government officials, and Marc Rich (who went on to do other great things like Oil For Fraud) … yeah, that’s what I thought.  There the blue state’s versions of moral values in one package.     Go dry up, weak little troll.  You lost … get over it.  Move On, Org!  Go to Florida and get your depression therapy.  The first step to recovery is to admit you (as a group) have a problem …  Right now, you’re going through what is known as "deflection and self-justification"  Using other people’s problems and weaknesses in order to feel better about yourselves and justify your (as a group) moral values.     Deflect all you want.  Justify yourselves all you want.  It still doesn’t change your party’s core values and how far-off they are from the center of the rest of the country.     You should have learned by now via the election that trying to blame someone else doesn’t strengthen your party or make them a more viable option. Lostpup198 "We will all be better citizens when voting records of our Congressmen are followed as carefully as scores of pro-football games." — Lou Erickson

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>What adulterous president got a blow job >in our White House, again?  

You think there was only one? The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

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Take it easy, Tony — your guy won, get used to it.        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

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>Take it easy, Tony — your >guy won, get used to it.

Yeah … I knew that you couldn’t come back with anything substantive to answer me with.  Fucking yip-yips. Lostpup198 "We will all be better citizens when voting records of our Congressmen are followed as carefully as scores of pro-football games." — Lou Erickson

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>>What adulterous president got a blow job >in our White House, again?   >You think there was only one? >The Repair Guy

I’ve only seen proof of one. Lostpup198 "We will all be better citizens when voting records of our Congressmen are followed as carefully as scores of pro-football games." — Lou Erickson

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[more delusional nonsense] Hey, Bruce, haven’t you heard? YOU LOST!!! Freep

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Do you guys really think that’s a cogent response? "Hey – news flash: You lost"? I could show you an authentic photo of W serving sauteed babies to Osama bin Laden, and you’d just say "hey, get over it – you lost!" As if this election means we should stop fighting for what we believe?  Fat freakin’ chance. We’re not going to stop. Get over it.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > [more delusional nonsense] > Hey, Bruce, haven’t you heard? YOU LOST!!! > Freep

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Keep fighting. I approve. Keep the "vote for us, you stupid morons" act going, too. That way, we get to win in 06 and 08 as well. Freep

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Do you guys really think that’s a cogent response? > "Hey – news flash: You lost"? > I could show you an authentic photo of W serving sauteed babies to Osama bin > Laden, and you’d just say "hey, get over it – you lost!" > As if this election means we should stop fighting for what we believe? Fat > freakin’ chance. > We’re not going to stop. > Get over it. > [more delusional nonsense] > Hey, Bruce, haven’t you heard? YOU LOST!!! > Freep

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"Fearless Freep" offered: > Keep fighting. I approve. Keep the "vote for us, you stupid morons" act > going, too. That way, we get to win in 06 and 08 as well.>

Freep nails it: "We hate all of you dumbass hick SOBs tyhat live between the Delawarer  River and the Sierra Nvadas, but vote Demo-Lib for higher taxes on rich bastards making more than $30k a year, an gutted antique military, public lands  confication so our radical green allies can go backpacking without you rabble botering them on your snowmobiles, trial lawyers getting fat off bullshit lawsuits (like our poster boy, John Edwards) and best yet, your choice of homos or lebians living in wedded bliss right next door!"

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: :     What adulterous president got a blow job in our White House, again?  That : was a "Blue State" electorate pResident, right?  Yeah … that’s what I : thought.  And who lied about it under oath?  Yeah, that’s right … that’s what : I thought.  And who pardoned convicted drug traffickers, drug dealers, money : launderers, corrupt government officials, and Marc Rich (who went on to do : other great things like Oil For Fraud) … yeah, that’s what I thought.  There : the blue state’s versions of moral values in one package.  Which is exactly why Clintons blowjob is always res-erected time and time again, to push such propaganda stereotype hype crap.  Close to half of the USA believes that  "moral values" go beyond just whether one is  sexually pristeen or not. These people have a wider definition that includes such things as sapping the resources of foreign countries whilst giving the native occupants litttle in return,  lying to the public about the reasons for a particular war, polluting the environment, doing next to nothing when it comes to steering our energy policies away from oil or nuclear, minority rights, selling weapons to the Iranians, sending our troops into battle for a bullshit war without properly designed humvees, spreading slander and malicious falsities about others, manipulating the populace through fearmongering and trumped up issues, ( the list goes on and on)  Moral values?  Faugh!!!!! :     Go dry up, weak little troll.  You lost … get over it.  Move On, Org!  Go : to Florida and get your depression therapy. Which in propagandist speak translates to ‘go away’ :  The first step to recovery is to : admit you (as a group) have a problem …  Right now, you’re going through what : is known as "deflection and self-justification"  Using other people’s problems : and weaknesses in order to feel better about yourselves and justify your (as a : group) moral values. You mean like taunting someone about their beloved sisters suicide? :     Deflect all you want.  Justify yourselves all you want. That’s about all the repugnicon propagandists ever do,,, deflect and justify. However, in the arena of moral values, their arguments are pretty thin IMHO  When one adds it all up, it pretty much boils down to one flimsy repugnicon propagandist overly hyped myth,,, *Democrats don’t believe in oppressing gays, so they’re morally depraved*  Absolutely brilliant!!!!  Let’s just see how long that one will fly,  especially now that it’s ben flagged. : It still doesn’t : change your party’s core values and how far-off they are from the center of the : rest of the country.  The rest of the country?  You’re making some pretty big assumptions about the values of all of the rest of the people that didn’t even vote,  aren’t you?  I guess it’s good that there are psychics sych as yourself that can know such things though eh?  Here’s an idear. Why even have elections when all we really need to do is have Tony use psychic divinition to determine the core values of America for us. typical  propandists trick,      accuse the adversary of your worst shortcoming.  It’s no secret that the Democratic party is the party of giving liberally.  Do you know what this means to give? And how do you deflect and justify not giving?  Turn the word liberal into a bad word?  bad bad liberals, they believe in society as a whole helping the less fortunate,,, how morally depraved they are!!! :     You should have learned by now via the election that trying to blame : someone else doesn’t strengthen your party or make them a more viable option.  Why not? It worked damn well for Rove and the repugnicon propagandists. Might that be what you’re really afraid of? Welcome to the top,, now there’s nowhere to go but down. : Lotsapoop198 : : "We will all be better citizens when voting records of our Congressmen are : followed as carefully as scores of pro-football games." : : — Lou Erickson :

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"Our job in the world is not to be loved, it is to be respected!"                       — Henry Kissenger

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>"Our job in the world is not to be loved, >it is to be respected!" >                      — Henry Kissenger

That’s pretty much the way it is. It’s also our job to not elect a flag burning $5 whore who’ll turn us into a nation of wimps, and pull us out of Iraq before our job is done there. Pete — How can you doubt thousands of years of superstition? –Grim

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>"Our job in the world is not to be loved, >it is to be respected!" >                      — Henry Kissenger > That’s pretty much the way it is. > It’s also our job to not elect a flag burning $5 whore who’ll turn us > into a nation of wimps, and pull us out of Iraq before our job is done > there. > Pete

Well put, Pete. Ed Cregger

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it’s our job not to elect an oil slut and his pimps and johns.

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Precisely, and that’s why we need to dump Bush, so the rest of the world respects us once more.

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Fuck Henry Kissmyassenger!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Our job in the world is not to be loved, > it is to be respected!" >                       — Henry Kissenger

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> Precisely, and that’s why we need to dump Bush, so the rest of the > world respects us once more.

What good is it to be "respected" and also hated? There is no need for us to be a frickin’ bully, but the morons who posted above you seem to confuse getting respect is by bullying. And our job is not to elect a frontman for a bunch of greedy bellicose pigs who hide behind a $5 flag made in slave labor China and need geography lessons so they won’t bomb the wrong country in their lust for the world’s oil supply while polluting OUR country with lies, toxic waste and wasted lives for their visions of granduer by cheating their way in boasting that God is on their side. Fuck ‘em! DEFEND AMERICA – DEFEAT BUSH!

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> "Our job in the world is not to be loved, > it is to be respected!" >                      — Henry Kissenger

I dont know if respect is the first word that comes to mind for most non Americans when it comes to the USA. Doug

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> "Our job in the world is not to be loved, > it is to be respected!" >                      — Henry Kissenger > I dont know if respect is the first word that comes to mind for most non > Americans when it comes to the USA. > Doug

I think that the kind of respect that Henry was talking about was more akin to being scared or fearing us. I agree with him. If you don’t want our troops on your soil, don’t make the US think that you are a threat to our survival/way of life. It really is simple. Some folks have cultures that are built in such a way that it would be impossible for their citizens to respect us in other terms. I don’t think that we need to force people to like us. But we do need to make it clear that we are no one to be trifled with. Stick around. You ain’t seen nuttin’ yet. Ed Cregger

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> "Our job in the world is not to be loved, >> it is to be respected!" >>                      — Henry Kissenger > I dont know if respect is the first word that comes to mind for most non > Americans when it comes to the USA. > Doug > I think that the kind of respect that Henry was talking about was more akin > to being scared or fearing us. I agree with him.

Being feared will never be the same as being respected;  demand respect with a big stick and there will always be someone looking for the bigger (or maybe better) stick to make you ‘respect’ them. > If you don’t want our troops on your soil, don’t make the US think that you > are a threat to our survival/way of life. It really is simple.

Isn’t that a little like the way the former Soviet Union thought as they were taking over most of Eastern Europe? And you know what eventually happened there. pinball man power glutton, vacuum inside his head forefinger on the button, is he blue or is he red?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> "Our job in the world is not to be loved, > >> it is to be respected!" > >>                      — Henry Kissenger > > I dont know if respect is the first word that comes to mind for most non > > Americans when it comes to the USA. > > Doug > I think that the kind of respect that Henry was talking about was more > akin > to being scared or fearing us. I agree with him. > Being feared will never be the same as being respected;  demand respect with > a big stick and there will always be someone looking for the bigger (or > maybe better) stick to make you ‘respect’ them. > If you don’t want our troops on your soil, don’t make the US think that > you > are a threat to our survival/way of life. It really is simple. > Isn’t that a little like the way the former Soviet Union thought as they > were taking over most of Eastern Europe? > And you know what eventually happened there.

Yeah, I do. We kicked their ass.  We’ll kick Islamo-Fascism’s ass, too, and any other ass that needs kicking. Lord Valve American

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> it’s our job not to elect an oil slut and his pimps and johns.

As in the two lefty John’s that need Flushing because they are so full of shit. Regards, Rich Koerner, Time Electronics. http://www.timeelect.com Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering,        Music & Studio Production, Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Precisely, and that’s why we need to dump Bush, so the rest of the > world respects us once more. > What good is it to be "respected" and also hated? > There is no need for us to be a frickin’ bully, > but the morons who posted above you seem > to confuse getting respect is by bullying. > And our job is not to elect a frontman for a bunch of > greedy bellicose pigs who hide behind a $5 flag made > in slave labor China and need geography lessons so > they won’t bomb the wrong country in their lust > for the world’s oil supply while polluting OUR > country with lies, toxic waste and wasted lives > for their visions of granduer by cheating their > way in boasting that God is on their side. Fuck ‘em! > DEFEND AMERICA – DEFEAT BUSH!

DEFEND AMERICA – DEFEAT *TERRORISM*, Bush kicks ass!!!!! Kerry is a Flake!!!!! He changes his mind with the wind!!!!! LOL, the freaking guy bashes Bush, more than he bashes those terrorists. Like those who killed those mothers and their children in that Russian school. Where was his Big Freaking Mouth then. <thinking> Besides, Bill and Hill were behind the Rather thing anyway. Kerry has to fall, so Hill can get in. Bill has his eyes on the UN. Regards, Rich Koerner, Time Electronics. http://www.timeelect.com Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering,        Music & Studio Production, Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers

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> "Our job in the world is not to be loved, > it is to be respected!" >                      — Henry Kissenger > I dont know if respect is the first word that comes to mind for most non > Americans when it comes to the USA. > Doug

That’s because you haven’t traveled to far and distant lands and spoken to the people there…. gtski

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> "Our job in the world is not to be loved, > >> it is to be respected!" > >>                      — Henry Kissenger > > I dont know if respect is the first word that comes to mind for most > > non > > Americans when it comes to the USA. > > Doug > I think that the kind of respect that Henry was talking about was more > akin > to being scared or fearing us. I agree with him. > Being feared will never be the same as being respected;  demand respect > with > a big stick and there will always be someone looking for the bigger (or > maybe better) stick to make you ‘respect’ them.

There will be anyway. That is human nature. Predator or prey. Those are the two choices that nature gives you. Anything else is bullshit philosophy that leads to death camps such as Aushwitz. > If you don’t want our troops on your soil, don’t make the US think that > you > are a threat to our survival/way of life. It really is simple. > Isn’t that a little like the way the former Soviet Union thought as they > were taking over most of Eastern Europe?

I would not mind seeing the West declaring the world’s oil supply too important to be subjected to the vagaries of alleged Saudi royalty or militant Islam and then occupy and shield those sites from sabotage. Why do you think we are in Iraq? It is a foothold toward protecting the oil supply. We are not their to steal their oil or their land, but to protect the distribution system from harm. A few alleged "royal" folks have their fingers firmly wrapped around our private parts. Who do you think started this depression? (It is just barely getting started)Look back to when the Saudis raised the price of oil and tripped the markets into sell-offs during the Clinton administration. This is a matter of recorded history. I’m not making this up. Look back even further and see that every other "recession" we have experienced since 1972 has been caused by these folks having a temper tantrum. It is time they were replaced with a Western friendly regime. One must care for oneself. No one else will and relying on others good intentions is idiotic. We have warned them repeatedly about financing and supporting terrorism and madrasas that preach hatred toward the West. Those warnings went unheeded. Now it is time to pay the piper. So, if we look out for ourselves, we will disintegrate like the Soviets? I don’t think so. The Soviets were defeated by their own ideology. Communism removes the incentive to work. It is a wonder that they lasted as long as they did. But you know this. We need to get hydrogen going big time and decouple ourselves from the Middle East. By not buying their oil, we also deprive them of the capital that is necessary to wage Jihad. However,, replacing petroleum with hydrogen will take time and lots of capital, all at a time when our economy is on the skids with no recovery in sight. Yes, I know, hydrogen is a transfer medium and not an energy source. But we have nearly unlimited wind power available in the midwest for producing enough clean power to liberate hydrogen and oxygen from water to fuel all of our vehicles at an acceptable cost. Even our current IC engines can be converted to burn hydrogen. We do not need to wait for fuel cell technology at all. I would much prefer that no one is ever killed in war. However, refusing to take care of your own interests will guarantee that you and your loved ones will at least suffer greatly, if not be killed. If someone has to suffer or die, I would much rather it be "them". In a perfect world, we would all take care of each other. We have a long, long way to go before something like that is possible – if ever. Ed Cregger

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Oh boy, please give me a link to the conspiracy theory to which you spubscribe. There are a number of variation on the ONe World Theme. Which one is yours?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > "Our job in the world is not to be loved, > > it is to be respected!" > >                      — Henry Kissenger > I dont know if respect is the first word that comes to mind for most > non > Americans when it comes to the USA. > Doug > That’s because you haven’t traveled to far and distant lands and > spoken to the people there…. > gtski

Well, I have.  MOST people are pretty good at distinguishing my views from those of the administration.  But I remember being in Ireland in late September 2001, where an old man kept telling me "God love you!  My whole country is behind you."  I’ve been back since, and I got none of that support.  I heard a wide variety of political voices in Morocco, but none of them seemed respectful of the U.S. Our country needs military strength – I fully believe that.  But respect has to be more than fear, because people will lash out at fear.  Israel is much stronger than Palestine, and is certainly feared there, but that doesn’t stop the terrorist attacks.  The conservatives hope (or at least claim to hope) that the pot-of-gold dream of capitalism will be enough to win people’s respect.  (And, faults and all, maybe it should.)  But it’s pretty hard for people to appreciate that when they’re scared shitless.

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http://bagnewsnotes.typepad.com/ short version: The problem with making sausage the President’s way-other than the fact that it deceives the public, precludes a serious debate, bitterly divides the body politic when war requires unity, exposes American soldiers to greater risk, substitutes half measures for thoroughgoing efforts, and insures that no one will be held accountable for mistakes that will never be corrected-is that it doesn’t work. What determines success in this war is what happens in Iraq and how Iraqis perceive it. If U.S.A.I.D. releases a report that prettifies the truth, officials here might breathe easier for a while, but it won’t speed up the reconstruction of Iraq. Covering up failures only widens the gap in perception between Washington and Baghdad-which, in turn, makes Washington less capable of grasping the reality of Iraq and responding to it. Eventually, the failures announce themselves anyway-in a series of suicide bombings, a slow attrition of Iraqi confidence, a sudden insurrection. War, unlike budget forecasts and campaign coverage, is quite merciless with falsehood. In refusing to look at Iraq honestly, President Bush has made defeat there more likely. This failing is only the most important repetition of a recurring theme in the war against radical Islam: the distance between Bush’s soaring, often inspiring language and the insufficiency of his actions. When he speaks, as he did at the Republican Convention, about the power of freedom to change the world, he is sounding deep notes in the American political psyche. His opponent comes nowhere close to making such music. But if Iraq looks nothing like the President’s vision-if Iraq is visibly deteriorating, and no one in authority will admit it-the speeches can produce only illusion or cynicism. In what may be an extended case of overcompensation, so much of the President’s conduct in the war has become an assertion of personal will. Bush’s wartime hero, Winston Churchill, offered his countrymen nothing but blood, toil, tears, and sweat. Bush offers optimistic forecasts, permanent tax cuts, and his own stirring resolve.

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The liberals in their lust for power have given the enemy the spirit to fight on. Teddy, Tom, Johnny, and the rest of them by telling the world that we are wrong and the world were lied to and the way the are bitching about it have given the enemy comfort, aide, and more importantly almost a self fullfilling prophacy about iraq trying to be another Viet-Nam. The liberals are sure trying. But we won’t let them. Regards, Spike <doesn’t have an original though snip> >http://bagnewsnotes.typepad.com/ >short version:

<snip>

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http://www.whodies.com/dies.html http://www.whodies.com/lies_threat.html Who dies for Bush Lies?

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The Bush administration, in their lust for power have been powerful warriors in the fight against freedom. W, Rummy, Ashcroft and the rest of them, by telling the world that we are wrong to question our government,  and more importantly, by attacking anyone except our most dangerous enemies, have created a self-fulfilling prophecy of a terrorist threat in Iraq. The neo-cons are sure trying. But we won’t let them.

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> Thanks for letting us know how she is doing.  Sometimes it can take a while > for meds to kick in, and sometimes it takes some time to discover the right > dosage/type of medication.  It’s important to be "assertive" with doctors, > especially when a person is starting on a med regime.   If she starts having > problems again, she can always go back for more "adjustment".  I’m glad she > has a supportive, patient partner.  It can make all the difference for > "mentally" ill people.  :-)

Second that! My first experience with an antidepressant was dreadful, totally the wrong medication for me. The next one worked much better, and once it had time to kick in and we found the proper dosage, things improved dramatically.

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Thanks for letting us know how she is doing.  Sometimes it can take a while for meds to kick in, and sometimes it takes some time to discover the right dosage/type of medication.  It’s important to be "assertive" with doctors, especially when a person is starting on a med regime.   If she starts having problems again, she can always go back for more "adjustment".  I’m glad she has a supportive, patient partner.  It can make all the difference for "mentally" ill people.  :-) Diane M.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Just wanted to say thanks for all the advice. I didn’t tell her to > smoke again. I encouraged her to go back to the doctor and she did. > Actually, she had seen a psychiatrist and been given some medication, > but it  didn’t seem to help at all… If anything it made things > worse. When she went back a couple of days ago, the doctor adjusted > the dosage (doubled it). I’m happy to say she seems to be doing much > much better, just about 100% normal in fact. > If anyone else has similar situation and reads this, I really strongly > suggest seeing a psychiatrist or psychologist. don’t just think its > the lack of smoking that’s causing your problems, you may well be > suffering from chronic depression or something like my girlfriend, and > the medication really works. > Anyway, thanks again.

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Just wanted to say thanks for all the advice. I didn’t tell her to smoke again. I encouraged her to go back to the doctor and she did. Actually, she had seen a psychiatrist and been given some medication, but it  didn’t seem to help at all… If anything it made things worse. When she went back a couple of days ago, the doctor adjusted the dosage (doubled it). I’m happy to say she seems to be doing much much better, just about 100% normal in fact. If anyone else has similar situation and reads this, I really strongly suggest seeing a psychiatrist or psychologist. don’t just think its the lack of smoking that’s causing your problems, you may well be suffering from chronic depression or something like my girlfriend, and the medication really works. Anyway, thanks again.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Just wanted to say thanks for all the advice. I didn’t tell her to > smoke again. I encouraged her to go back to the doctor and she did. > Actually, she had seen a psychiatrist and been given some medication, > but it  didn’t seem to help at all… If anything it made things > worse. When she went back a couple of days ago, the doctor adjusted > the dosage (doubled it). I’m happy to say she seems to be doing much > much better, just about 100% normal in fact. > If anyone else has similar situation and reads this, I really strongly > suggest seeing a psychiatrist or psychologist. don’t just think its > the lack of smoking that’s causing your problems, you may well be > suffering from chronic depression or something like my girlfriend, and > the medication really works. > Anyway, thanks again.

Good to hear Adam – thanks for coming back and letting us know. It sounds like your girlfriend has a very caring boyfriend – lovely to see! So glad she is doing so much better…and still quit! Paula

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> My girlfriend quit smoking almost 6 months ago and is still having a > terrible time. She feels despair and anxiety 24/7. I have never smoked > and am afraid I don’t relate very well, as much as I try. She says its > getting worse all the time, and I can’t tell her when it’s going to > get better, only that it will get better.

You’ve already gotten some very good advice with regard to your girlfriend seeing a mental health professional. One thing I’d like to add is she should understand needing help with a broken brain is no different than needing help for a broken leg. The proper treatment can work wonders. Most depression is very treatable, and if she needs medication, the proper kind will help enormously. It  really will get better. No one should suffer dispair and anxiety like this needlessly. One other thing, if she can hang on to her quit, it will be something that can provide comfort and a feeling of success in the future and may really help with her recovery.

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Adam,    I have no medical credentials but can give you some info from my experience.  By 6 months this is no longer withdrawal from nicotine addiction.  The nicotine is mostly gone from you system the first 3 days and the physical addiction only last another day or two.   By 6 months she should have changed enough of those daily habits from smoking related to non smoking related that things really are getting easier.  What could this be I cannot be sure.   I do have a suggestion though.  One thing nicotine does is hide your emotions.  When all those strong emotions come to the surface it does take some folks a good bit of time to learn to deal with them.  This is especially true for very long term smokers.  That may be part of the issues and maybe there are some issues that should have been dealt with medically years ago.     With that said my best suggestion is to have a medical examination for any physical issues and maybe a psychological examination for an emotional issues. Only trained medical professionals can tell for sure if that is the problem and what should be done about it.  At this point thats the best advice I can give to you. Ian OOF — 8y 8m 4w 1d 16:03 smoke-free, 108,580 cigs not smoked, $13,398.77 saved, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >My girlfriend quit smoking almost 6 months ago and is still having a >terrible time. She feels despair and anxiety 24/7. I have never smoked >and am afraid I don’t relate very well, as much as I try. She says its >getting worse all the time, and I can’t tell her when it’s going to >get better, only that it will get better. >She says she wants to die, that she feels so bad she could take her >life. I don’t know if its the addiction talking or if she is really >suicidal, but I’m very worried. We have a long distance relationship, >so I can’t watch her or help in any way physically. Should I just tell >her to go ahead and smoke again?

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>My girlfriend quit smoking almost 6 months ago and is still having a >terrible time. She feels despair and anxiety 24/7. I have never smoked >and am afraid I don’t relate very well, as much as I try. She says its >getting worse all the time, and I can’t tell her when it’s going to >get better, only that it will get better.

It should have begun to get better by now, IMHO (although everyone is different, of course).  It does sound as though she has more problems than just her addiction to smoking. >She says she wants to die, that she feels so bad she could take her >life. I don’t know if its the addiction talking or if she is really >suicidal, but I’m very worried. We have a long distance relationship, >so I can’t watch her or help in any way physically. Should I just tell >her to go ahead and smoke again?

Please try to get her to see a doctor ASAP.  He will be able to help her deal with her depression.  If there is anyone nearby whom you can contact and you trust, see if you can get them to visit her and make sure she is OK for the moment. I don’t believe smoking is going to solve her problem – and if she has stuck it out this long, neither does she. Lemming — Curiosity *may* have killed Schrodinger’s cat. http://goldcrossdata.co.uk/                      ICQ: 8647501

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A lot of people have mood problems right after they quit, but most get better after a few months.  A very small percentage of people who quit smoking find that they were using smoking to cover up mental disorders. Quitting can bring those disorders to light, and in some instances, make them worse.  Unfortuneately, starting smoking again doesn’t necessarily cure the disorder or take the person back to where they were when they smoked. It sounds as if your girlfriend needs to be evaluated by a psychiatric professional.  Soon.  Not a general practitioner – a psychiatrist.  Wanting to die is a very bad sign, but talk of taking her own life should never be ignored or dismissed as "not serious".  If the choice is between dying and smoking, I am a firm believer that smoking is a better option – but there are MUCH better options for treating depression than smoking.  Have her get to someone who can help her find them.  Now.  It will get better, but she may need some help, at least short term, to make it get better.  Good Luck. Diane M. … who was there

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My girlfriend quit smoking almost 6 months ago and is still having a > terrible time. She feels despair and anxiety 24/7. I have never smoked > and am afraid I don’t relate very well, as much as I try. She says its > getting worse all the time, and I can’t tell her when it’s going to > get better, only that it will get better. > She says she wants to die, that she feels so bad she could take her > life. I don’t know if its the addiction talking or if she is really > suicidal, but I’m very worried. We have a long distance relationship, > so I can’t watch her or help in any way physically. Should I just tell > her to go ahead and smoke again?

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Hi Adam, *please* don’t tell your girlfriend to start smoking again. I’ve been in a similar situation and, in my opinion, I don’t think it’s quitting smoking that’s bothering her but she’s blaming it on that so she can go back to it to stuff away what is really at the root of her despair and anxiety. I would encourage her to talk to her doctor, explain that she’s quit and for how long. If she doesn’t feel comfortable talking to him/her then she needs to find a professional she is comfortable talking to. If she’s got to six months without smoking then deep down she doesn’t really want to start again, she wouldn’t continue to put herself though this suffering if she really thought smoking would make her feel better. hope this helps hugs padders (

Posted originally by Padders, these really have helped many people…. With hope and heart, Kathleen DAY 1 Welcome to the majority. Only 26 percent of adult Americans smoke, and they nearly all wish they didn’t. Public opinion holds smokers in low esteem. When a person lights up a cigarette, others see a poor soul lacking in self-control, a victim. To put it unkindly, a drug addict. After all, precious few people smoke because they want to. They smoke because they can’t stop. Yet they are surrounded by people who could stop and did. How does that make them feel? Bad. As you did until today. No you have crossed to the other side. You can hold up your head. You can sit in the non-smoking section. You don’t have to subject yourself to other people’s whims by asking the sniveling questions "Mind if I smoke?" Now you’re as good as they are. Twenty minutes after your last cigarette, nicotine ceased to affect your blood pressure, pulse, and body temperature. Within 8 hours, the carbon monoxide level in your blood drastically fell, and increased oxygen is now reaching all the tissues of your body. By: Meditations for surviving without cigarettes DAY 2 Don’t feel sorry for yourself. People moan about the pain of quitting, but what about the pleasure? Things are looking up already. You’ve cleared out those vile ashtrays. You smell better. You don’t have to look for your cigarettes. You probably don’t feel your best today. You crave a cigarette, naturally. You expected that. But you may also be bowed down by headaches, nausea, sweatiness, aches, and digestive upsets. Not to mention irritability, restlessness, anxiety, and difficulty concentrating. These are normal nicotine withdrawal symptoms, and they pass quickly. You can ignore them, or if you prefer, declare yourself sick and go to bed. It’s best to stay away from smokers; this is a perfect time to haunt museums, movie theatres, parks, and mountain trails. one woman spent the first two no-smoking days on her bicycle miserable and depressed. On the third day she felt wonderful. Withdrawal is a nasty business. Wouldn’t care to repeat it, would you? Even if you’re on a nicotine patch, you’re unlikely to be feeling wholly yourself. Observe your feelings, as if they were a passing parade. They will retreat, and so will the urge for a cigarette, unless you smoke. Tomorrow will be different. DAY 3 You have conferred tremendous benefits on yourself by quitting smoking. You’ve added not just eight years (on average age) to your expected life span, but eight much healthier years than you could look forward to as a smoker. Put to good use, they will be happier years, too. You are now in a position to get more out of life than you ever could as a smoker. That cloud of smoke stood between you and life’s full experience. At the moment you may be coughing or clearing your throat more than ever before–so much that your chest may hurt. Be glad! You’ve recovered the ability to clear out blocked airways, which were stuck full of mucus. The clearing-out process lasts only a few days, and your old smoker’s cough (the body’s attempt to protect itself from the irritants in cigarette smoke) will be history in a few weeks. Fatigue during the day and wakefulness at night are normal withdrawal symptoms, not likely to last more than a few weeks. Intestinal upsets can also last weeks, but most of your other symptoms will pass in a day or two. The worst cigarette cravings should now be behind you. DAY 4 Your worst physical withdrawal symptoms should have passed by now. if the only reason you smoked was that you’d once had the bad luck of becoming addicted to nicotine, you’d be home free. But people are not such fools that they smoke out of addiction alone. They smoke because smoking is rewarding. Chances are, you have a number of hurdles still to cross in your metamorphosis into a non-smoker. In the past, smoking has helped you to regulate your moods, ignore pain, control excitement, ward off anxiety, and medicate depression. But as smoking provides only a distraction, not a cure, smokers tend to have a lot of unfinished business in their psyches. When someone stops smoking, he or she is apt to suffer most from the intensity of emotions. The uplifting ones can be as intimidating as the anxious ones. Both scream "CIGARETTE"!!! The trick is to let these feelings rush by without succumbing to them. In time, you will learn to tend your emotions far more affectively without cigarettes than you ever did with them. DAY 5 As long as you smoked, your body operated under a tremendous hindrance. It had to adapt not only to nicotine, but to the 4000 plus other chemicals found in burning tobacco (over 40 of which are known to be carcinogenic). That smoke you took in didn’t just gum up your lungs, but passed immediately into your bloodstream. The carbon monoxide in the smoke displaced oxygen, making you tired and breathless. Nicotine sped up your heart rate and raised your blood pressure. When you lit a cigarette your body temperature also fell, and less blood flowed to your arms, legs, and feet. If you’re feeling tingling now in your fingers and toes, it’s because you’re noticing improved circulation. If you still want a cigarette, try the 4 D’s: Drink water, Delay, Deep-breathe, Do something else. The craving will go away in a couple of minutes — If you don’t smoke DAY 6 You do exercise, don’t you? Exercise lets you fully reap the sense of well-being that comes from not smoking. Exercise does well what the body does badly, which is to alleviate anxiety, depression, and restlessness. Both smoking and exercise give the brain’s neurotransmitters a boost, but the effects of exercise are much longer lasting. A cigarette produces only a few minutes’ reprieve from anxiety; a good workout creates genuine relaxation, lasting hours. For those who worry about getting fat, exercise is a critical part of the program. It’s necessary to find an exercise you can bring yourself to do regularly. You can hate running and still like ice skating or racquetball or weight lifting or bicycling or swimming or yoga. Good old walking will do fine. An easy stroll is far better than nothing. In your early weeks of not smoking, you should try to at least one exercise break a day. The exertion cuts the craving for a cigarette, and there is satisfaction in making the most of your body’s growing capabilities–now that it is no longer a smoking machine. DAY 7 "Just for today" is a key slogan in Nicotine Anonymous. "Just for today, I will not smoke." You may reassess the situation tomorrow, whereupon you may decide to smoke again. Thus, your only problem is getting through today. In the years to come, if you want to smoke, say to yourself, "Well, maybe tomorrow." Tomorrow, one hopes, you will decide you can get through tomorrow. This takes the chill off making a lifetime decision. The thought of forever may be too much to contemplate. And if tomorrow seems too close to forever, there’s "just for the next 7 minutes I will not smoke."

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: I loved these, haven’t seen them in eons.. aren’t they originally from a : book or something? : Thanks for reposting them, they are great to read I don’t remember, Kita… at least I didn’t save that info.  I did see that the following is in a couple of them: : > By: Meditations for surviving without cigarettes Hugs, Kathleen

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I loved these, haven’t seen them in eons.. aren’t they originally from a book or something? Thanks for reposting them, they are great to read – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Posted originally by Padders, these really have helped many people…. > With hope and heart, > Kathleen > DAY 1 > Welcome to the majority. Only 26 percent of adult Americans smoke, and > they nearly all wish they didn’t. Public opinion holds smokers in low > esteem. When a person lights up a cigarette, others see a poor soul > lacking in self-control, a victim. To put it unkindly, a drug addict. > After all, precious few people smoke because they want to. They smoke > because they can’t stop. Yet they are surrounded by people who could > stop and did. How does that make them feel? > Bad. As you did until today. No you have crossed to the other side. > You can hold up your head. You can sit in the non-smoking section. You > don’t have to subject yourself to other people’s whims by asking the > sniveling questions "Mind if I smoke?" Now you’re as good as they > are. > Twenty minutes after your last cigarette, nicotine ceased to affect > your blood pressure, pulse, and body temperature. Within 8 hours, the > carbon monoxide level in your blood drastically fell, and increased > oxygen is now reaching all the tissues of your body. > By: Meditations for surviving without cigarettes > DAY 2 > Don’t feel sorry for yourself. People moan about the pain of quitting, > but what about the pleasure? Things are looking up already. You’ve > cleared out those vile ashtrays. You smell better. You don’t have to > look for your cigarettes. > You probably don’t feel your best today. You crave a cigarette, > naturally. You expected that. But you may also be bowed down by > headaches, nausea, sweatiness, aches, and digestive upsets. Not to > mention irritability, restlessness, anxiety, and difficulty > concentrating. These are normal nicotine withdrawal symptoms, and they > pass quickly. You can ignore them, or if you prefer, declare yourself > sick and go to bed. It’s best to stay away from smokers; this is a > perfect time to haunt museums, movie theatres, parks, and mountain > trails. one woman spent the first two no-smoking days on her bicycle > miserable and depressed. On the third day she felt wonderful. > Withdrawal is a nasty business. Wouldn’t care to repeat it, would you? > Even if you’re on a nicotine patch, you’re unlikely to be feeling > wholly yourself. Observe your feelings, as if they were a passing > parade. They will retreat, and so will the urge for a cigarette, > unless you smoke. Tomorrow will be different. > DAY 3 > You have conferred tremendous benefits on yourself by quitting > smoking. You’ve added not just eight years (on average age) to your > expected life span, but eight much healthier years than you could look > forward to as a smoker. Put to good use, they will be happier years, > too. You are now in a position to get more out of life than you ever > could as a smoker. That cloud of smoke stood between you and life’s > full experience. > At the moment you may be coughing or clearing your throat more than > ever before–so much that your chest may hurt. Be glad! You’ve > recovered the ability to clear out blocked airways, which were stuck > full of mucus. The clearing-out process lasts only a few days, and > your old smoker’s cough (the body’s attempt to protect itself from the > irritants in cigarette smoke) will be history in a few weeks. > Fatigue during the day and wakefulness at night are normal withdrawal > symptoms, not likely to last more than a few weeks. Intestinal upsets > can also last weeks, but most of your other symptoms will pass in a > day or two. The worst cigarette cravings should now be behind you. > DAY 4 > Your worst physical withdrawal symptoms should have passed by now. if > the only reason you smoked was that you’d once had the bad luck of > becoming addicted to nicotine, you’d be home free. > But people are not such fools that they smoke out of addiction alone. > They smoke because smoking is rewarding. Chances are, you have a > number of hurdles still to cross in your metamorphosis into a > non-smoker. In the past, smoking has helped you to regulate your > moods, ignore pain, control excitement, ward off anxiety, and medicate > depression. But as smoking provides only a distraction, not a cure, > smokers tend to have a lot of unfinished business in their psyches. > When someone stops smoking, he or she is apt to suffer most from the > intensity of emotions. The uplifting ones can be as intimidating as > the anxious ones. Both scream "CIGARETTE"!!! The trick is to let these > feelings rush by without succumbing to them. In time, you will learn > to tend your emotions far more affectively without cigarettes than you > ever did with them. > DAY 5 > As long as you smoked, your body operated under a tremendous > hindrance. It had to adapt not only to nicotine, but to the 4000 plus > other chemicals found in burning tobacco (over 40 of which are known > to be carcinogenic). That smoke you took in didn’t just gum up your > lungs, but passed immediately into your bloodstream. The carbon > monoxide in the smoke displaced oxygen, making you tired and > breathless. Nicotine sped up your heart rate and raised your blood > pressure. When you lit a cigarette your body temperature also fell, > and less blood flowed to your arms, legs, and feet. If you’re feeling > tingling now in your fingers and toes, it’s because you’re noticing > improved circulation. > If you still want a cigarette, try the 4 D’s: Drink water, Delay, > Deep-breathe, Do something else. The craving will go away in a couple > of minutes — If you don’t smoke > DAY 6 > You do exercise, don’t you? Exercise lets you fully reap the sense of > well-being that comes from not smoking. Exercise does well what the > body does badly, which is to alleviate anxiety, depression, and > restlessness. Both smoking and exercise give the brain’s > neurotransmitters a boost, but the effects of exercise are much longer > lasting. A cigarette produces only a few minutes’ reprieve from > anxiety; a good workout creates genuine relaxation, lasting hours. For > those who worry about getting fat, exercise > is a critical part of the program. > It’s necessary to find an exercise you can bring yourself to do > regularly. You can hate running and still like ice skating or > racquetball or weight lifting or bicycling or swimming or yoga. Good > old walking will do fine. An easy stroll is far better than nothing. > In your early weeks of not smoking, you should try to at least one > exercise break a day. The exertion cuts the craving for a cigarette, > and there is satisfaction in making the most of your body’s growing > capabilities–now that it is no longer a smoking machine. > DAY 7 > "Just for today" is a key slogan in Nicotine Anonymous. "Just for > today, I will not smoke." You may reassess the situation tomorrow, > whereupon you may decide to smoke again. Thus, your only problem is > getting through today. In the years to come, if you want to smoke, say > to yourself, "Well, maybe tomorrow." Tomorrow, one hopes, you will > decide you can get through tomorrow. This takes the chill off making a > lifetime decision. The thought of forever may be too much to > contemplate. And if tomorrow seems too close to forever, there’s "just > for the next 7 minutes I will not smoke."

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DAY 22 If you’re still having strong impulses to smoke (or worse, succumbing to The impulses), keep track of what brings up the urge. Parties are hard for a lot of people. It may help if you break the ice when you arrive at a party by announcing immediately to somebody that you’ve quit smoking. After that, most people find it too humiliating to be seen with a cigarette. If that doesn’t work, lay off parties for awhile. Not smoking is more important. The liquor at parties adds to an ex-smoker’s vulnerability. If drinking makes you smoke, then drinking may have to go. And if you can’t stop drinking, you have a drinking problem. Call Alcoholics Anonymous or the National Council on Alcoholism. DAY 23 The American obsession with thinness has the tragic effect of keeping many people hooked on cigarettes. It’s all very well for doctors to say that you could gain 100 pounds and still be healthier than if you smoked. Given the choice, you’d rather be dead. There is a fair chance that you are going to end up weighing more than you did while you smoked, but probably not by much. It appears that smoking lowers your natural weight–setpoint–and so when you stop, the body perceives itself as underweight. Consequently, you may suddenly find yourself eating like a horse. The important thing is not to panic and imagine that you’re gong to go on eating like a horse indefinitely. Once the body reaches its new chosen weight, your appetite will drop off. A few people do add considerable poundage, which can take a few years to deal with, but a fair number of people do not gain weight at all. Exercise, like smoking, seems to lower the body’s setpoint, as well as transforming belly fat to muscle. DAY 24 The life of a smoker has become particularly miserable in recent years now that many households are hostile to smoking. A visit with friends entails suffering for the smoker. While others are making merry, the smoker is longing for a cigarette. She becomes more and more distracted as the question looms larger "When can she make a break for it?" Just as she’s about to go into the garden for a cigarette, dinner is served. After dinner, when it would seem reasonable to have a little smoke outdoors, some bore is telling an endless story, and she can’t politely exit until it’s finished. And then soon after she’s served her addiction, the old urge starts all over again. It’s just as bad in restaurants. Even understanding friends may admit that smelling smoke while they’re eating makes them sick. Smoking was certainly more fun when there was a happy conviviality about it. Now, a person who unveils a pack of cigarettes feels like a murderer. DAY 25 In your first few weeks as a nonsmoker, your sleep may be disturbed, but you may soon be sleeping more soundly than you did before, particularly if you’ve been getting some exercise. You may find yourself needing more sleep than you used to (you’re more active during the day) or less (you have more energy). Don’t get overtired, which leads to carelessness, which leads to smoking. Meanwhile, keep a good book next to your bedside and be glad you don’t have to worry about falling asleep with a cigarette in your hand. In Baltimore, a three-year study found that more than half the house fires were caused by smoking. Of those who died, 39 percent were not the smokers themselves. DAY 26 Although cigarettes have been the downfall of most contemporary tobacco addicts, there are other ways to go — pipes, cigars, snuff, chewing tobacco. In India there’s the problem of reverse chutta smoking–which is the smoking of a cigarlike stick with the lit end inside the mouth. The practioners of these minority methods should not imagine that they are exempt from the problems of cigarette smoking. When the mortality statistics are highest for cigarettes, each method of nicotine intake has its own nasty side effects. Pipe smokers have high rates of lip and pharynx cancer; cigar smokers get tongue cancer; and snuff and chewing tobacco lead to tongue and gum cancer and heart disease. Furthermore, all nicotine users are drug addicts and consequently to some degree are escaping reality and operating beneath capacity. If your problem was tobacco, but not cigarettes, just substitute the name of your habit when reading this book. Be assured that your vice, whatever it was, was just as vile as cigarettes. DAY 27 Among smoking diseases, lung cancer is one of the quicker ways to go. Emphysema is one of the lingering ones. The air sacs of the lungs are destroyed; by the time the disease is diagnosed a large percentage of these sacs are gone. The sufferer may be left struggling for breath for years before death comes. Smokers have ten times the emphysema rate of non-smokers. Even in the early years of smoking, tobacco is inflicting permanent damage on the lungs. Damaged lungs cannot be reconstituted, but fortunately one can breathe with lungs that operate way below capacity. If the damage is arrested, one may be lucky enough to never seriously suffer from the harm already done. DAY 28 It may seem surprising that the simple act of smoking can cause such varied damage to remote areas of the body. The explanation is that tobacco smoke is made up of a wide variety of toxic chemicals that circulate through the entire body in the bloodstream. Carbon monoxide is only one of the deadly chemicals produced. Nicotine itself is the usual suspect when it comes to raising blood pressure and forming blood clots, but it’s the other chemicals that cause cancer. More than forty have been identified as carcinogens, and some are complete carcinogens, capable of starting tumors single-handedly. One is beta-naphtylamine, which causes bladder cancer, a cancer seven to 10 times more common in smokers than in nonsmokers. Wherever tar lands in the system, it produces abnormal cells, which is where cancers start. For pipe and cigar smokers who don’t inhale, the main cancer sites are the lips, tongue, mouth, jaws, larynx, and esophagus. For cigarette smokers, the primary list goes on to include the lungs, bladder, kidneys, and pancreas. DAY 29 The debate is over as to whether it is harmful to be on the other end of the smoker’s cigarette. It is. Passive smoking is now recognized as the third leading preventable cause of death – after active smoking and drinking. Nonsmokers living with smokers have a 30 percent (or higher, according to some studies) risk of death from heart attacks. And nonsmokers who live with smokers cannot be dismissed as the kinds of people who have heart attacks anyhow. The platelets of nonsmokers sitting for twenty minutes in a waiting room with smokers became stickier-a condition that leads to heart attacks. In one study, 69 percent of nonsmokers developed eye irritation when among smokers; 29 percent had nasal symptoms; 32 percent had headaches; and 25 percent developed coughs. And these were the non-allergic nonsmokers. The percentages were much higher among those with allergies. The nonsmoking majority is fighting back, and public places and work sites now often prohibit smoking. It is in the home that smokers most often find their victims-defenseless children. Day 30 Many are the ex-smokers who have turned to cigarettes at times of pressure. And just as many have been sorry afterward. When the heat is on, it’s easy to forget your priorities, such as how much you care about not smoking. There you are, your mind agitated when a devious thought comes to you: "I need a cigarette." And many months later, the only reason you may have to remember that day is that it was the day you started smoking again. It’s only the moment you have to get through, and the urge will pass. So be ready for it. Proactive. Conjure up difficult situations in which you turn down cigarettes. There you are in the hotel bar late at night when your ex-wife walks in. You suffered for two years after she left. She looks better than ever. She’s with her new husband. You’re with a friend who smokes. DON’T REACH FOR HIS CIGARETTES. That sensation of a rib breaking your chest will pass. You could be stuck with cigarettes forever. DAY 31 You’ve done it! A month without cigarettes. This is a time for celebration-perhaps a long-distance call to someone who will appreciate this good news? It’s also time for one of your periodic counting of blessings. Think back to the state you were in when you smoked. Do you feel better now? Look better? Smell better? Sleep better? Do you get more done? Do you hold your head higher? So, maybe not. Maybe you’re a nervous wreck. Maybe you chew your fingernails or scream at your children. Some people find themselves depressed at this point. If you smoked to avoid facing inner problems, the problems may have become much more apparent since you stopped smoking. But you still have something to be thankful for-at least you’re on the road to recovery. You’re not hiding in your private smoke shelter anymore. Possibly you could benefit from professional insight. Most medical plans offer short-term psychological help-and consider it particularly cost-effective in the case of people giving up smoking.

Response:

Day 15 Irritability is a big complaint of people who quit smoking. All those little things that you once took in your stride bug you. The sound of certain voices may make you feel murderous. Being put on hold is more than you can take. Trying to be civil is exhausting. You miss the old easygoing Joe or Jill everybody was so fond of; anything that got on your nerves was met with a cigarette. You can be fairly confident that your irritability level will go down in the next two weeks, although you may not become like Buddha. It’s possible that behind that curtain of smoke, which you raised whenever any small annoyance was at hand, is a somewhat irritable person, one of the reasons you smoked was to obscure that unwelcome fact. Becoming less irritable, which you can do, may take some time and effort–with meditation, therapy, fresh air, biofeedback, exercise, etc. There are, however, some things that are just plain irritating, such as injustice and dishonesty. These should rightfully be met with action, rather than with either smoking or a smile. Day 16 It helps to practice turning down cigarettes before the chance even arises. Imagine Rhett Butler sidling up next to you while you’re standing line at the movies. "Cigarette?" he says. "NO THANK YOU. I DON’T SMOKE," you say. Rhett won’t stick around, but you could be stuck with the cigarettes for years to come. Suppose something frightening happens. Your brother is out fishing, there’s a storm, his boat doesn’t return. You are waiting at the pier with your sister-in-law, who is chain-smoking. DON’T SMOKE. Whatever happens, smoking will only make it worse. Actually, it’s usually the mundane situations that get you. Your cousin, a nonstop talker who has been boring you out of your skull for 25 years, is visiting. In a moment of clarity, you realize that chain-smoking got you through his visits before. Get out your knitting. Or get him out. If a situation is driving you to smoke, change the situation. DAY 17 A smoker is a slave, at the beck and call of a cigarette. you, however, are now free. As your life need no longer be arranged around smoke breaks, you can go anywhere and do anything. If you’ve dreamed of exploring interior New Guinea, you can go without worrying about running out of cigarettes. And speaking of running, you don’t get that awful pain deep in your lungs anymore when you dash for a bus. If you’re lucky, you stopped smoking before you had a heart attack. Young persons who have heart attacks are overwhelmingly smokers. The chemicals in tobacco accelerate arteriosclerosis, and hearts of smokers are starved for oxygen. Carbon monoxide, inhaled from tobacco, readily displaces oxygen in the bloodstream. A smoker has 8 to 30 times as much carbon monoxide in his/her veins as a nonsmoker–thus getting less oxygen than a nonsmoker would at 8,000 feet. Young males who smoke two packs a day have seven times the risk of a heart attack as nonsmokers. For young women–under age 50– smoking two packs a day raises the risk for heart attack to ten times that of nonsmoking women. DAY 18 Has anyone commented on how much better you smell? There are no two ways about it: smokers stink. One can usually detect a smoker by smell alone, and stale tobacco is not an endearing odor. A smoker’s house stinks, too. Most of us do not care to hang around inside one. Often it’s also overheated because the smoker has poor circulation and jacks the thermometer up. The smell inside a smoker’s car does not bear mention. DAY 19 Another aesthetic consideration: wrinkles. Women especially wrinkle up from smoking, probably because of a lack of blood flow to the skin. One study of smokers and wrinkling, based on photographic portraits, concluded that smokers ages 40 to 49 had as many wrinkles as non smokers 20 years older. The coloring of a smoker isn’t pretty either. Likewise due to lack of blood circulation, the skin tends to be sallow, lacking that slight blush that adds to sex appeal. No amount of makeup substitutes for moist, dewy skin. You probably already look far better than you id twelve days ago. Men have tougher skin, but men who smoke are still far more likely to be excessively wrinkled than nonsmokers. Smoking certainly undermines the virile look, and a smoking man looks more beaten than bold. And in time, the health problems associated with smoking do their sad work. Nobody who is carrying an oxygen bottle looks sexy. DAY 20 Besides the smell and the wrinkles, another giveaway that someone is a smoker is stained, yellow teeth. Young people may escape tobacco-colored teeth for awhile, but eventually the effect catch up with them. Smokers get four to five times more gum disease than non smokers and are more likely to lose their teeth at an early age. A study of 17,000 people in Buffalo, new York, revealed that the condition of the gums and underlying bones of smokers was comparable to that of non-smokers fifteen years older. Among women with osteoporosis, the smokers are three times more likely to lose their teeth than the nonsmokers. Now’s the time to make an appointment for a teeth cleaning to get the old cigarette stains off. Your teeth should look a lot better afterward and will stay that way if you don’t smoke. If there’s irreversible damage, you may want to look into the new staining and bonding process. DAY 21 Nicotine Anonymous is a fast-spreading program. Like Alcoholics Anonymous, it is based on twelve steps, it has no dues or fees, and meetings are run by unpaid members. Sabrina P. has been attending meetings weekly for the two years since she stopped smoking. "I’d tried everything by the time I got to Nic Anon. The support and awareness I found there are the reasons I’m not smoking today. I had to realize that I’m an addict. That’s the baseline. People at meetings said, "Don’t listen to your brain, except for entertainment, because it’s addicted." I had been smoking two packs a day for thirty years. Who knew what this person was like without a drug? "Cigarettes had been my high power. They regulated my life. I preferred smoking to sex. When I smoked, I never felt alone because I had my cigarettes. When I put my cigarettes down I couldn’t stand the gaping hole inside. I felt I was one of those smokers who would smoke through the hole after a tracheotomy. It’s a miracle that I stopped. I prayed, I worked in my garden for six hours nonstop, I stood in my living room and screamed. People at meetings would say that if you’re going to stop smoking you have to be prepared to change your life. I was and I did. I’m not just healthier. I’m calmer, I have self-esteem, and my relationships are far better. Smoking kept me shame-based, a word I picked up from John Bradshaw. I’m not shame-based anymore."

Response:

DAY 8 Congratulations! Your first and worst week without cigarettes is over. It is not, however, time to relax your vigilance. Instead, count your blessings. You look better, you smell better, and you’re welcome wherever you go. You are probably enjoying your food more, too. Few great cooks are smokers, as smokers generally lack both the passion for food and the nose for it. You may, however, now be demonstrating an obsession with food that you’d rather not have, and you should take certain precautions. If you crave sweets, suck on lemon drops or Life Savers. Bowls of sunflower seeds around the house are diverting. Keep plenty of fruit, juice, and ice water on hand, and fill the fridge with ready to eat vegetable snacks. You can use the vitamins; as a smoker, you needed more and absorbed less. And eat good square meals, remembering that the US Government recommends that we all eat five to seven servings of fruit and vegetables each day. This is no time to diet. Chew gum if you must, but bear in mind that some people find gum chewing even more irritating than smoking. DAY 9 Even though he quit 16 years ago, Micheal Mery vividly remembers how difficult it was. "I loathed myself for smoking, for trashing myself, but it still took me a long time to quit. When I finally did stop, the first three days were just the normal physical withdrawal. Then a light-headedness set in that was so extreme that I was borderline dangerous. (Mery is a carpenter and works with power tools). At the same time, I was almost euphoric not to be smoking. "I’d also break out in a sweat from head to foot while just sitting in a chair, and I had major joint pain. I was irritable for months. Three months after I quit I had a drag of my then-wife’s cigarette. Having that one drag filled me with fury at myself for being so stupid. That was the last time I smoked." "I didn’t notice much physical change until one day I was shovelling horse manure into my truck for my mother’s garden. I was in a big hurry, and I loaded up in less than twenty minutes. As I drove away I was amazed to notice I wasn’t winded. Now, I run twenty miles a week. I’m just grateful to be free of cigarettes. DAY 10 Day by day, this book takes note of the milestones the ex-smoker passes along the road to recovery. Some body parts recuperate quickly, some slowly. For ease of reference, we collect together here some of the highlights in the progress of an ex-smoker. Twenty minutes after the last cigarette: Blood pressure, pulse, and body temperature return to normal. Eight hours later: Carbon monoxide level in the blood falls, allowing oxygen level to rise. Seventy-two hours later: The bronchial tubes relax, and breathing becomes easier. The lung power increases. Coughing decreases. Two weeks to three months: Circulation improves; stamina increases; lung capacity increases up to 30 percent Two Months: Chronic cough completely disappears One to nine months: Sinus congestion, fatigue, and shortness of breath decrease. The cilia regrow in the lungs. One year: Risk of heart disease falls to half that of a current smoker Five years: Risk of heat attack and stroke almost equals that of a never smoker Six years: Risk of bladder cancer becomes half that of a never-smoker Ten years: Risk of lung cancer drops to half that of a never-smoker Fifteen years: Risk of lung cancer drops to almost that of a never-smoker Day 11 Chances are that you still feel a berserk craving for a cigarette from time to time. Even nonbelievers may take recourse in prayer at such moments. Saying "God help me" (white breathing deeply) comes as naturally to quitters as it does to drowning sailors. Both are, after all, fighting for their lives. Leo Tolstoy, author of War and Peace, felt that people smoke, or took other intoxicants, to drown the conscience. He gives as an example the cook who cut his lady’s throat but could not finish her off until he smoked a cigarette. Thieves, gamblers, and prostitutes nearly all smoke–and so do people in lawful professions, says Tolstoy, if their behavior requires them to quiet their consciences. DAY 12 Most smokers cling to the odd idea that cigarettes reduce stress. In fact, the effect of smoking is quite the opposite. On lighting a cigarette, the pulse speeds up, blood pressure increases, and the heart pumps faster.  The smoker may enjoy a moments tranquillity when the nicotine hits the brain, but that is quickly followed by the agitation of withdrawal. So the next cigarette quickly follows, sending a further valley of toxins into the body and to the nervous system. The upshot is that smoking is the world’s worst way to cope with stress. Rx for stress: Take three deep breaths, and hold the last one as long as you can. Have a hot bath. Run around the block. Do some stretches. Envision snowcapped mountains. Find someone pleasant to talk to. Pour out your soul into a notebook. Go to bed early. Day 13 Coffee drinking and smoking go together in the minds of many smokers like the proverbial horse and carriage — so much so that some cigarette quitters feel they must renounce coffee also. But adding the stress of giving up coffee to that of giving up cigarettes can be unduly traumatic. Most cigarette quitters would just as soon postpone caffeine withdrawal, perhaps till the grave. However, you might as wee be advised to cut down on the quantity of caffeine you’re taking in. Smokers metabolize caffeine faster than nonsmokers. In one test, caffeine levels went up 46 percent after smokers quit smoking–while still drinking the same amount of coffee. This could account for some of the irritability and nervousness attributed to cigarette withdrawal. So add some decaf to your usual coffee brew, and if need be, alter your rituals. The after-breakfast cup of coffee causes many recent ex-smokers to grieve for their after-breakfast cigarettes. Have that second cup of coffee (maybe decaf) but don’t sit around with it. Stroll in the garden. Strum the old guitar you’ve stowed in the closet. And this is an excellent time to write in your journal–where you can express those feelings you’re no longer trying to extinguish with smoke. Day14 Two weeks smoke free! You’re feeling like a real nonsmoker now, not even thinking about cigarettes for big chunks of time. You may still have bad moments, very likely in the evenings when you’re tired and your defenses are low. It’s a good idea to acquire new routines to get your mind off sinking into an easy chair with a cigarette. One couple who quit together now each evening take a stroll together. You may need to find things to do with your hands: Set up a picture puzzle, do the ironing, bake bread, groom the dog, sew, take up needlework, make a model airplane, pull weeds, or practice your golf swing. One ex-smoker started making a replica of the Vatican from a cut-out book. "It’s incredibly soothing," she says. "I methodically cut, fold, and glue, and the Vatican rises before me." Michelangelo didn’t smoke. If he had, at the age of eighty he could hardly been hanging from the Vatican’s Sistine Chapel ceiling painting the frescoes.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Almost everybody gets a guy with a stick to help decide.  Since there is > almost no rational basis for locating a well, this will help you too. > Almost all well-drillers will haul out a forked stick at the drop of a hat, > so this should work out fine.  I gather that if you have a shallow well now > and others in your area have shallow wells.  Shallow wells are not very > costly, so let whoever is doing it choose a spot. > One thought that has occured to me is that if everybody in your area is on > wells, and various folks water lawns, the result could be that the ground > water table is dropping.  Whether your new well will affect your old well is > hard to guess.  But probably not. > Yes I agree with everything you’ve said, especially about the closet, what > a > pain! > So I guess I’ve resorted to doing another point just for the sprinklers. > How far from the existing point should I be? > > > Thanks for the input.  However I must disagree on your statement that > > most > > > people with wells don’t water their lawns.  I live in a development > > where > > > everyone is on a well, and I’d say most have lawn sprinklers. Maybe > > this > > > will be a good way to meet the neighbors. > > > Thanks again, > > > Jeff > > > > Wells aren’t that cooperative.  You may or may not be able to get > > enough > > > > water to water your lawn, but you should definitely drive a separate > > well > > > > for the purpose.  If it comes in with enough water, great. The main > > thing > > > > is to have enough water for your house and not screw up the well you > > have. > > > > The pump size is mostly dictated by the well depth.  A .5hp pump is > > more > > > > than enough to water your lawn; it can deliver 12 gpm from a shallow > > well, > > > > if the well has 12 gpm available. > > > > Most people with wells don’t water their lawns. > > > > > Hi, > > > > > This wonderful new money trap we bought has a problem with the > > water > > > well. > > > > > I’m not real sure of the terminology  but here goes, I have a > > driven > > > well > > > > > point that is supposedly only 21 feet deep.  The pump is in a > > closet in > > > > the > > > > > basement.  It has two plastic, 1 inch I think, pipes coming out of > > it, > > > > going > > > > > into the floor.  There is an expansion tank that I cannot see. > > (It is > > > > > behind the closet wall) > > > > > We have more than enough water for household tasks, laundry, > > dishwasher, > > > > > showers, etc.  However when I try to run the lawn sprinkler system > > I > > > have > > > > > problems.  I can run one zone for about 5 minutes, after that the > > pump > > > > > starts "chugging".  The sprinkler output drops way down and I can > > hear > > > the > > > > > pump sucking water from the upstairs toilet and hose spigots.  I > > can’t > > > > stand > > > > > the noise from the pump so I shut the system off.  Needless to say > > my > > > lawn > > > > > has almost completely burnt up. > > > > > The interesting thing is that the system must have worked for the > > > previous > > > > > owner, because last fall when we looked at the house the lawn was > > > > gorgeous. > > > > > Any suggestions?  I’ve thought of driving another point with a > > separate > > > > pump > > > > > for just the sprinklers but I’m not sure what size pump and how > > far from > > > > the > > > > > existing point should I be. > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Jeff > > The well owner that successfully waters their lawn on and ongoing basis > > has a number of things going in their favor. First is the well has been > > done with that water use in mind. Second, the pump has been sized > > correctly for the well, the house water needs and the irrigation > > requirements. Third, they usually water after other water needs have > > been met; like overnight etc.. Miss getting any one of those right and > > you should stop trying to water the lawn or you may end up with no water > > to use anywhere. Or the water will go dirty etc. and you won’t want to > > use it in the house. Or you burn up a pump. > > Anything that has a change in the sound it produces when operating needs > > to be serviced or otherwise looked at now; especially a well water pump. > > Waiting usually makes things much worse while drastically shortening the > > time available to fix it. That usually increases the cost and/or chances > > of screwing up the fix. > > Anyone putting a well pump and pressure tank in a tight closet should be > > shot. At least twice! > > The tank has to be checked for proper air pressure, the (compressed) air > > is actually the power used to move water when the pump isn’t running. > > Proper air pressure is 2 psi less air than the cut-in pressure switch > > setting; I.E. 30/50 water pressure gets 28 psi air pressure when there > > is no water in the tank. If this doesn’t solve some of the problems, > > then you look at the condition of the pump and how much water is in the > > well and the recovery rate of the well. And that’s the proper > > troubleshooting order. > > Gary > > Quality Water Associates

If the new well is in the recharge area of the old one, both will be effected by pumping the other. The effect of that will/can be an increased cone of depression with the deepest part between the two wells. That can limit the output of both and increase the recovery time of both. Gary Quality Water Associates

Response:

Almost everybody gets a guy with a stick to help decide.  Since there is almost no rational basis for locating a well, this will help you too. Almost all well-drillers will haul out a forked stick at the drop of a hat, so this should work out fine.  I gather that if you have a shallow well now and others in your area have shallow wells.  Shallow wells are not very costly, so let whoever is doing it choose a spot. One thought that has occured to me is that if everybody in your area is on wells, and various folks water lawns, the result could be that the ground water table is dropping.  Whether your new well will affect your old well is hard to guess.  But probably not.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yes I agree with everything you’ve said, especially about the closet, what a > pain! > So I guess I’ve resorted to doing another point just for the sprinklers. > How far from the existing point should I be? > > Thanks for the input.  However I must disagree on your statement that > most > > people with wells don’t water their lawns.  I live in a development > where > > everyone is on a well, and I’d say most have lawn sprinklers.  Maybe > this > > will be a good way to meet the neighbors. > > Thanks again, > > Jeff > > > Wells aren’t that cooperative.  You may or may not be able to get > enough > > > water to water your lawn, but you should definitely drive a separate > well > > > for the purpose.  If it comes in with enough water, great.  The main > thing > > > is to have enough water for your house and not screw up the well you > have. > > > The pump size is mostly dictated by the well depth.  A .5hp pump is > more > > > than enough to water your lawn; it can deliver 12 gpm from a shallow > well, > > > if the well has 12 gpm available. > > > Most people with wells don’t water their lawns. > > > > Hi, > > > > This wonderful new money trap we bought has a problem with the > water > > well. > > > > I’m not real sure of the terminology  but here goes, I have a > driven > > well > > > > point that is supposedly only 21 feet deep.  The pump is in a > closet in > > > the > > > > basement.  It has two plastic, 1 inch I think, pipes coming out of > it, > > > going > > > > into the floor.  There is an expansion tank that I cannot see. > (It is > > > > behind the closet wall) > > > > We have more than enough water for household tasks, laundry, > dishwasher, > > > > showers, etc.  However when I try to run the lawn sprinkler system > I > > have > > > > problems.  I can run one zone for about 5 minutes, after that the > pump > > > > starts "chugging".  The sprinkler output drops way down and I can > hear > > the > > > > pump sucking water from the upstairs toilet and hose spigots.  I > can’t > > > stand > > > > the noise from the pump so I shut the system off.  Needless to say > my > > lawn > > > > has almost completely burnt up. > > > > The interesting thing is that the system must have worked for the > > previous > > > > owner, because last fall when we looked at the house the lawn was > > > gorgeous. > > > > Any suggestions?  I’ve thought of driving another point with a > separate > > > pump > > > > for just the sprinklers but I’m not sure what size pump and how > far from > > > the > > > > existing point should I be. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Jeff > The well owner that successfully waters their lawn on and ongoing basis > has a number of things going in their favor. First is the well has been > done with that water use in mind. Second, the pump has been sized > correctly for the well, the house water needs and the irrigation > requirements. Third, they usually water after other water needs have > been met; like overnight etc.. Miss getting any one of those right and > you should stop trying to water the lawn or you may end up with no water > to use anywhere. Or the water will go dirty etc. and you won’t want to > use it in the house. Or you burn up a pump. > Anything that has a change in the sound it produces when operating needs > to be serviced or otherwise looked at now; especially a well water pump. > Waiting usually makes things much worse while drastically shortening the > time available to fix it. That usually increases the cost and/or chances > of screwing up the fix. > Anyone putting a well pump and pressure tank in a tight closet should be > shot. At least twice! > The tank has to be checked for proper air pressure, the (compressed) air > is actually the power used to move water when the pump isn’t running. > Proper air pressure is 2 psi less air than the cut-in pressure switch > setting; I.E. 30/50 water pressure gets 28 psi air pressure when there > is no water in the tank. If this doesn’t solve some of the problems, > then you look at the condition of the pump and how much water is in the > well and the recovery rate of the well. And that’s the proper > troubleshooting order. > Gary > Quality Water Associates

Response:

Yes I agree with everything you’ve said, especially about the closet, what a pain! So I guess I’ve resorted to doing another point just for the sprinklers. How far from the existing point should I be?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thanks for the input.  However I must disagree on your statement that > most > people with wells don’t water their lawns.  I live in a development > where > everyone is on a well, and I’d say most have lawn sprinklers.  Maybe > this > will be a good way to meet the neighbors. > Thanks again, > Jeff > > Wells aren’t that cooperative.  You may or may not be able to get > enough > > water to water your lawn, but you should definitely drive a separate > well > > for the purpose.  If it comes in with enough water, great.  The main > thing > > is to have enough water for your house and not screw up the well you > have. > > The pump size is mostly dictated by the well depth.  A .5hp pump is > more > > than enough to water your lawn; it can deliver 12 gpm from a shallow > well, > > if the well has 12 gpm available. > > Most people with wells don’t water their lawns. > > > Hi, > > > This wonderful new money trap we bought has a problem with the > water > well. > > > I’m not real sure of the terminology  but here goes, I have a > driven > well > > > point that is supposedly only 21 feet deep.  The pump is in a > closet in > > the > > > basement.  It has two plastic, 1 inch I think, pipes coming out of > it, > > going > > > into the floor.  There is an expansion tank that I cannot see. > (It is > > > behind the closet wall) > > > We have more than enough water for household tasks, laundry, > dishwasher, > > > showers, etc.  However when I try to run the lawn sprinkler system > I > have > > > problems.  I can run one zone for about 5 minutes, after that the > pump > > > starts "chugging".  The sprinkler output drops way down and I can > hear > the > > > pump sucking water from the upstairs toilet and hose spigots.  I > can’t > > stand > > > the noise from the pump so I shut the system off.  Needless to say > my > lawn > > > has almost completely burnt up. > > > The interesting thing is that the system must have worked for the > previous > > > owner, because last fall when we looked at the house the lawn was > > gorgeous. > > > Any suggestions?  I’ve thought of driving another point with a > separate > > pump > > > for just the sprinklers but I’m not sure what size pump and how > far from > > the > > > existing point should I be. > > > Thanks, > > > Jeff > The well owner that successfully waters their lawn on and ongoing basis > has a number of things going in their favor. First is the well has been > done with that water use in mind. Second, the pump has been sized > correctly for the well, the house water needs and the irrigation > requirements. Third, they usually water after other water needs have > been met; like overnight etc.. Miss getting any one of those right and > you should stop trying to water the lawn or you may end up with no water > to use anywhere. Or the water will go dirty etc. and you won’t want to > use it in the house. Or you burn up a pump. > Anything that has a change in the sound it produces when operating needs > to be serviced or otherwise looked at now; especially a well water pump. > Waiting usually makes things much worse while drastically shortening the > time available to fix it. That usually increases the cost and/or chances > of screwing up the fix. > Anyone putting a well pump and pressure tank in a tight closet should be > shot. At least twice! > The tank has to be checked for proper air pressure, the (compressed) air > is actually the power used to move water when the pump isn’t running. > Proper air pressure is 2 psi less air than the cut-in pressure switch > setting; I.E. 30/50 water pressure gets 28 psi air pressure when there > is no water in the tank. If this doesn’t solve some of the problems, > then you look at the condition of the pump and how much water is in the > well and the recovery rate of the well. And that’s the proper > troubleshooting order. > Gary > Quality Water Associates

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thanks for the input.  However I must disagree on your statement that most > people with wells don’t water their lawns.  I live in a development where > everyone is on a well, and I’d say most have lawn sprinklers.  Maybe this > will be a good way to meet the neighbors. > Thanks again, > Jeff > Wells aren’t that cooperative.  You may or may not be able to get enough > water to water your lawn, but you should definitely drive a separate well > for the purpose.  If it comes in with enough water, great.  The main thing > is to have enough water for your house and not screw up the well you have. > The pump size is mostly dictated by the well depth.  A .5hp pump is more > than enough to water your lawn; it can deliver 12 gpm from a shallow well, > if the well has 12 gpm available. > Most people with wells don’t water their lawns. > > Hi, > > This wonderful new money trap we bought has a problem with the water > well. > > I’m not real sure of the terminology  but here goes, I have a driven > well > > point that is supposedly only 21 feet deep.  The pump is in a closet in > the > > basement.  It has two plastic, 1 inch I think, pipes coming out of it, > going > > into the floor.  There is an expansion tank that I cannot see. (It is > > behind the closet wall) > > We have more than enough water for household tasks, laundry, dishwasher, > > showers, etc.  However when I try to run the lawn sprinkler system I > have > > problems.  I can run one zone for about 5 minutes, after that the pump > > starts "chugging".  The sprinkler output drops way down and I can hear > the > > pump sucking water from the upstairs toilet and hose spigots.  I can’t > stand > > the noise from the pump so I shut the system off.  Needless to say my > lawn > > has almost completely burnt up. > > The interesting thing is that the system must have worked for the > previous > > owner, because last fall when we looked at the house the lawn was > gorgeous. > > Any suggestions?  I’ve thought of driving another point with a separate > pump > > for just the sprinklers but I’m not sure what size pump and how far from > the > > existing point should I be. > > Thanks, > > Jeff

The well owner that successfully waters their lawn on and ongoing basis has a number of things going in their favor. First is the well has been done with that water use in mind. Second, the pump has been sized correctly for the well, the house water needs and the irrigation requirements. Third, they usually water after other water needs have been met; like overnight etc.. Miss getting any one of those right and you should stop trying to water the lawn or you may end up with no water to use anywhere. Or the water will go dirty etc. and you won’t want to use it in the house. Or you burn up a pump. Anything that has a change in the sound it produces when operating needs to be serviced or otherwise looked at now; especially a well water pump. Waiting usually makes things much worse while drastically shortening the time available to fix it. That usually increases the cost and/or chances of screwing up the fix. Anyone putting a well pump and pressure tank in a tight closet should be shot. At least twice! The tank has to be checked for proper air pressure, the (compressed) air is actually the power used to move water when the pump isn’t running. Proper air pressure is 2 psi less air than the cut-in pressure switch setting; I.E. 30/50 water pressure gets 28 psi air pressure when there is no water in the tank. If this doesn’t solve some of the problems, then you look at the condition of the pump and how much water is in the well and the recovery rate of the well. And that’s the proper troubleshooting order. Gary Quality Water Associates

Response:

Thanks for the input.  However I must disagree on your statement that most people with wells don’t water their lawns.  I live in a development where everyone is on a well, and I’d say most have lawn sprinklers.  Maybe this will be a good way to meet the neighbors. Thanks again, Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Wells aren’t that cooperative.  You may or may not be able to get enough > water to water your lawn, but you should definitely drive a separate well > for the purpose.  If it comes in with enough water, great.  The main thing > is to have enough water for your house and not screw up the well you have. > The pump size is mostly dictated by the well depth.  A .5hp pump is more > than enough to water your lawn; it can deliver 12 gpm from a shallow well, > if the well has 12 gpm available. > Most people with wells don’t water their lawns. > Hi, > This wonderful new money trap we bought has a problem with the water well. > I’m not real sure of the terminology  but here goes, I have a driven well > point that is supposedly only 21 feet deep.  The pump is in a closet in > the > basement.  It has two plastic, 1 inch I think, pipes coming out of it, > going > into the floor.  There is an expansion tank that I cannot see.  (It is > behind the closet wall) > We have more than enough water for household tasks, laundry, dishwasher, > showers, etc.  However when I try to run the lawn sprinkler system I have > problems.  I can run one zone for about 5 minutes, after that the pump > starts "chugging".  The sprinkler output drops way down and I can hear the > pump sucking water from the upstairs toilet and hose spigots.  I can’t > stand > the noise from the pump so I shut the system off.  Needless to say my lawn > has almost completely burnt up. > The interesting thing is that the system must have worked for the previous > owner, because last fall when we looked at the house the lawn was > gorgeous. > Any suggestions?  I’ve thought of driving another point with a separate > pump > for just the sprinklers but I’m not sure what size pump and how far from > the > existing point should I be. > Thanks, > Jeff

Response:

Wells aren’t that cooperative.  You may or may not be able to get enough water to water your lawn, but you should definitely drive a separate well for the purpose.  If it comes in with enough water, great.  The main thing is to have enough water for your house and not screw up the well you have. The pump size is mostly dictated by the well depth.  A .5hp pump is more than enough to water your lawn; it can deliver 12 gpm from a shallow well, if the well has 12 gpm available. Most people with wells don’t water their lawns.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > This wonderful new money trap we bought has a problem with the water well. > I’m not real sure of the terminology  but here goes, I have a driven well > point that is supposedly only 21 feet deep.  The pump is in a closet in the > basement.  It has two plastic, 1 inch I think, pipes coming out of it, going > into the floor.  There is an expansion tank that I cannot see.  (It is > behind the closet wall) > We have more than enough water for household tasks, laundry, dishwasher, > showers, etc.  However when I try to run the lawn sprinkler system I have > problems.  I can run one zone for about 5 minutes, after that the pump > starts "chugging".  The sprinkler output drops way down and I can hear the > pump sucking water from the upstairs toilet and hose spigots.  I can’t stand > the noise from the pump so I shut the system off.  Needless to say my lawn > has almost completely burnt up. > The interesting thing is that the system must have worked for the previous > owner, because last fall when we looked at the house the lawn was gorgeous. > Any suggestions?  I’ve thought of driving another point with a separate pump > for just the sprinklers but I’m not sure what size pump and how far from the > existing point should I be. > Thanks, > Jeff

Response:

Hi, This wonderful new money trap we bought has a problem with the water well. I’m not real sure of the terminology  but here goes, I have a driven well point that is supposedly only 21 feet deep.  The pump is in a closet in the basement.  It has two plastic, 1 inch I think, pipes coming out of it, going into the floor.  There is an expansion tank that I cannot see.  (It is behind the closet wall) We have more than enough water for household tasks, laundry, dishwasher, showers, etc.  However when I try to run the lawn sprinkler system I have problems.  I can run one zone for about 5 minutes, after that the pump starts "chugging".  The sprinkler output drops way down and I can hear the pump sucking water from the upstairs toilet and hose spigots.  I can’t stand the noise from the pump so I shut the system off.  Needless to say my lawn has almost completely burnt up. The interesting thing is that the system must have worked for the previous owner, because last fall when we looked at the house the lawn was gorgeous. Any suggestions?  I’ve thought of driving another point with a separate pump for just the sprinklers but I’m not sure what size pump and how far from the existing point should I be. Thanks, Jeff

Response:

Because growth has been lacklustre since the US emerged from recession in 2001, the economy has failed to create jobs. On the contrary, under the so-called jobless recovery, more than two million jobs have disappeared since the president, George Bush, took office in January 2001. In fact, Mr Bush could be the first president since Herbert Hoover, who was in the White House from 1929 to 1933, the years of the Great Depression, to oversee a decline in total US jobs during his term. By contrast, 22 million jobs were created during the Clinton years. The persistence of sluggishness has surprised economists, and some believe that the job market will not have recovered by the end of 2004, when Mr Bush will have to fight for re-election. With the presidential elections looming next year, Democrats have focused on the economy as Mr Bush’s weak spot. Nancy Pelosi of California, the House Democratic leader, has described Mr. Bush’s economic record as "$3-trillion deeper in debt, three million fewer jobs." from the Guardian ANYONE BUT BUSH IN 2004

Response:

>Because growth has been lacklustre since the US emerged >from recession in 2001

The US entered a recession in March 2001 and hasn’t come out of it yet.

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Right & the tax-cut plan he has is not going to stimulate the economy enough to create real, new jobs.  It’s that same old Regan strickle-down stuuff that never worked either. Plus, it’s going to bring those big, yearly deficits.  The whole thing is screwed. Nuke Bush. Mike

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Can’t nuke him, he can’t even say the word.  He’s got teflon, too.  Maybe the dems will give us someone who’s electible.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Right & the tax-cut plan he has is not going to stimulate the economy > enough to create real, new jobs.  It’s that same old Regan > strickle-down stuuff that never worked either. > Plus, it’s going to bring those big, yearly deficits.  The whole thing > is screwed. > Nuke Bush. > Mike

Response:

> Right & the tax-cut plan he has is not going to stimulate the economy > enough to create real, new jobs.  It’s that same old Regan > strickle-down stuuff that never worked either.

Yep, I believe someone called it "Voodoo Economics". > Plus, it’s going to bring those big, yearly deficits.  The whole thing > is screwed. > Nuke Bush.

Flush the Bushit! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Mike

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> Can’t nuke him, he can’t even say the word.

Notice how he pronounces the word "terrorist" and makes it sound like it’s only one syllable? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->He’s got teflon, too.  Maybe > the dems will give us someone who’s electible. > Right & the tax-cut plan he has is not going to stimulate the economy > enough to create real, new jobs.  It’s that same old Regan > strickle-down stuuff that never worked either. > Plus, it’s going to bring those big, yearly deficits.  The whole thing > is screwed. > Nuke Bush. > Mike

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> >Because growth has been lacklustre since the US emerged >from recession in 2001 > The US entered a recession in March 2001 and hasn’t come out of it yet.

You misspelled 1999.  HTH.

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Not a chance, unless there is a revolution.    Chris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Can’t nuke him, he can’t even say the word.  He’s got teflon, too.  Maybe > the dems will give us someone who’s electible. > Right & the tax-cut plan he has is not going to stimulate the economy > enough to create real, new jobs.  It’s that same old Regan > strickle-down stuuff that never worked either. > Plus, it’s going to bring those big, yearly deficits.  The whole thing > is screwed. > Nuke Bush. > Mike

Response:

>>> Because growth has been lacklustre since the US emerged >> from recession in 2001 > The US entered a recession in March 2001 and hasn’t come out of it yet. > You misspelled 1999.  HTH.

Seemed to me like confidence in the the stock market started diving right when it looked like Bush was going to be elected. Zoid —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

> Right & the tax-cut plan he has is not going to stimulate the economy > enough to create real, new jobs.  It’s that same old Regan > strickle-down stuuff that never worked either. > Plus, it’s going to bring those big, yearly deficits.  The whole thing > is screwed.

Yeah but a whole lot more people will be able to afford those $2,000 Bush-Burgers Sheesh for that price you’d expect some good Texas BBQ

Response:

>> The US entered a recession in March 2001 and hasn’t come out of it yet. > You misspelled 1999.

Nope. March 2001. Right after the market realized that Bush was going to fuck things up.

Response:

> >> The US entered a recession in March 2001 and hasn’t come out of it yet. > You misspelled 1999. > Nope. March 2001. Right after the market realized that Bush was going to fuck > things up.

It tanked in the fall before the election – when people finally realized it would be either Bush OR Gore and either one of them would seriously mess things up…

Response:

>It tanked in the fall before the election

Sorry. The recession started in March 2001. Unless you dispute the normal economist’s definition of "recession."

Response:

>It tanked in the fall before the election > Sorry. The recession started in March 2001. Unless you dispute the normal > economist’s definition of "recession."

Ok…  I’ll bite…  economist’s defintition of "recession"… But once we are "IN" a reccession… it’s merely the result of previous economic activity…  eh..?? Do economists say we were in a good growth period and then BANG three months later it is a "recession"…???  Which would really mean that the "downturn" happened in ONE month… and after three… they declared it a recession…?? When did the stock market "peak"… and BEGIN it’s plunge..??? The market saw the "future" (so to speak), mulled it over for a period, and then reacted…  so the "market" actually begin to suspect the worst even as it was spiking… I’ve often wondered how much of the ’spike’ at the end was due to short-sales by those in the know, who were trying to go short JUST before the plunge….  they kept getting hammered by the day-traders on the internet who were still in a feeding-frenzy… … gtski

Response:

>But once we are "IN" a reccession… it’s merely the result of previous >economic activity…  eh..??

Nope. It’s due in large oart to the confidence that the market has in the people in power NOW. As soon as Dubya got selected by the Supreme Court the market decided that the economy was fucked. It still is.

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And the Yanks are Stinky Big Cowards, they only pick on countries that cant fight back too much Jim —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The French are stinky little COWARDS !!!!

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an they send colored people (30%) and latinos on the front, people who don’t even have the nationality so that they’re sure they get the green card. Disgusting. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> And the Yanks are Stinky Big Cowards, they only pick on countries > that cant fight back too much > Jim > — > The French are stinky little COWARDS !!!!

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> an they send colored people (30%) and latinos on the front, people who don’t > even have the nationality so that they’re sure they get the green card. > Disgusting.

Without getting into the implications of the demographics of the US armed forces, this statement is simply not true.  One must be a legal resident of the US before one is allowed to enlist in the military.  What is true, though, is that enlistment puts legal residents/green cardholders on a fast track for US citizenship. GG

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> an they send colored people (30%) and latinos on the front, people who don’t > even have the nationality so that they’re sure they get the green card. > Disgusting.

Well, no one ever said the U.S. had a MONOPOLY on uninformed idiots! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> And the Yanks are Stinky Big Cowards, they only pick on countries > that cant fight back too much > Jim > — > > The French are stinky little COWARDS !!!!

Response:

As a former British citizen who, while still an "alien", joined the  U.S. Navy as an enlisted man and retired 25 years later as a commissioned officer, I can tell you that enlisting does not put you on a fast track for US citizenship.  I had to go through all of the hoops and wait the same time periods as any other applicant.  I was, however, proud to wear my uniform to my swearing in. Wee laddie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> an they send colored people (30%) and latinos on the front, people who > don’t > even have the nationality so that they’re sure they get the green card. > Disgusting. > Without getting into the implications of the demographics of the US armed > forces, this statement is simply not true.  One must be a legal resident of > the US before one is allowed to enlist in the military.  What is true, > though, is that enlistment puts legal residents/green cardholders on a fast > track for US citizenship. > GG

Response:

> As a former British citizen who, while still an "alien", joined the  U.S. > Navy as an enlisted man and retired 25 years later as a commissioned > officer, I can tell you that enlisting does not put you on a fast track for > US citizenship.  I had to go through all of the hoops and wait the same time > periods as any other applicant.  I was, however, proud to wear my uniform to > my swearing in. > Wee laddie

Now, however, it does put you on a faster track.  Bush issued an executive order in July to accomplish this. See http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/07/03/bush.military.citizenship/?related GG – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > an they send colored people (30%) and latinos on the front, people who > don’t > > even have the nationality so that they’re sure they get the green card. > > Disgusting. > Without getting into the implications of the demographics of the US armed > forces, this statement is simply not true.  One must be a legal resident > of > the US before one is allowed to enlist in the military.  What is true, > though, is that enlistment puts legal residents/green cardholders on a > fast > track for US citizenship. > GG

Response:

Veuillez, s’il-vous-pla

Good post.  Keep on Keeping on Future.   Don’t smoke, Joy of+ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->For months and months.. I’ve been despairing over a losing someone.  I >was rejected, despite how much I gave, how much I cared.  In essence I >gave much of my heart, and paid the price these past few months. >The reasons she gave me why it couldn’t work, because of how she wants >to be single for a while, I’m a few years older than her, we’re in >different places in our lives.  Those all rang true to me; they were the >same nagging doubts I had, except I pushed them aside and let my >emotions take over.  There was definite chemistry between us.  we’d been >through so much in so little time, due to some unfortunate >circumstances.  we we could talk, make each other laugh, etc.  and every >time we saw each other there was this closeness, intimacy, and at those >times it seemed so right, and moreover, possible. >Now I find that everything she said was a lie, all the excuses.  She’s >"hooked up" with someone recently, someone many years older than I am.   >And you know what, it feels good.  It feels good to finally be certain >that she really was taking advantage of me, of how I was willing to help >her out whenever she asked, how I was willing to be there for her when >nobody else would.  Sure it was obvious to me how I only heard from her >when she wanted something from me, but I never outright knew, because I >thought that possibly she shared the same frustration as me: wanting to >be together, but knowing that it can’t work, at least not now.  These >thing she expressed to me, not just in words.  And I tell you, as >upsetting as it may be that I was rejected for some other reason, it’s >eclipsed by the joy I’m feeling to know that I don’t have to give her >the time of day anymore, I don’t have to wonder if she’s as tormented as >I, because, well, she’s not.  She’s not worth my time or my feelings. >I have to thank her for doing more than Zyban (in its anti-depressant >form) could ever do for me. >I was gonna OT the subject but it’s kind of relevant: she’s one of the >main reasons I’ve had major trouble quitting, and why I started up again >in the first place. >phase >(nearing 1m..Three weeks, six days, 16 hours, 26 minutes and 46 seconds) >—-== Posted via Newsfeed.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- >http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups >—= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers – Total Privacy via Encryption =—

Response:

> Good evening, Phase, > I’m sorry that you are going through this. It’s that simple. I don’t > have the time to say all i want to right now, but I will be back > later. I just wanted you to know I care how you feel. I’ll be back > soon.

Hi, Thanks … I realized after posting I didn’t fully explain everything.  Any time I saw her over the past month, which wasn’t that much, and usually when she needed me to help her out, she’d maintain the story that she was torn.  It almost always ended dramatically.  So… I allowed myself to believe it, mostly that she didn’t want to be in a relationship right now, she’s "not ready", too unstable.  And yeah okay I completely agree with that, she’s fucked up, addicted to drugs (one of them nicotine, another worse), likes to socialize, party, go places I wouldn’t be caught dead.  I don’t know why, my emotions took over, I wouldn’t listen to my own reason, not unlike how I ignore all my sensibilities when I crave a cigarette.  And so for three months now, I’ve gone in and out of depression, because things in my life weren’t going too well in the first place. Then like, this morning, I read on a web page journal of hers, she found someone last week, she’s so happy, even though her parents aren’t keen on the idea that he’s eight years older.  I think her parents’ disapproval though is part of what drives her attraction towards guys, because her parents actually like me.  That’s weird, because no girlfriend’s parents have EVER liked me.  In one case our relationship was forbidden, but that’s another story.  Anyway, they liked me probably because I sat by her side for countless hours overnight in the emergency room, then later in the hospital, when none of her friends bothered to stay more than 5 minutes, and most of them didn’t even come at all.  We were really close during that time.  And before that, we’d had some romantic encounters I guess you could say.  but… the more she recovered, the more distant she got, the less affectionate.  I think I bored some of you on IRC with this story a month ago ok2bwild was there, if I recall … So besides being traumatized by the whole hospital incident (what happened to her, it’s like my worst fear, and to see her helpless in the ER for 12 hours with no one being able to help, no effective medication, that’s something hard to forget) I kept feeling bad that it didn’t work out, it felt so right.  I saw her from time to time last month, and we’d be close again, we’d talk about a relationship, she’d have to think about it, etc.   Now that she’s sort of revealed herself, going against everything she told me was why we couldn’t be together, I feel good knowing that she’s completely full of shit.  I guess it was a lot harder having this image of perfection in my mind, even though it was far from perfect, and coping with the loss of it.  I suspected she was taking advantage of me.   Now I guess I feel kind of vindicated.  Now it won’t hurt so much when she asks me to do something and I have to say no to protect my feelings, like I’m obligated to as a friend… when she’s never really been my mind, I’ve only been hers. A weight has been lifted.  it isn’t making me happy by any means, but maybe it’ll end up being one less thing to dwell on.  Why waste my thoughts & time on someone who doesn’t care.  I knew that logic before.   Now maybe I’ll be able to apply it. phase One month, 5 minutes and 44 seconds. =) —-== Posted via Newsfeed.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups —= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers – Total Privacy via Encryption =—

Response:

> FMD?  Phase that’s lovely!!  Start a new thread for congrats!!

No no not necessary but thanks very much… I move in four days.  I’m excited & not stressed.  I actually feel okay for the first time in months.  Does peace of mind await?  hmm… who knows.  I think it’s gonna be a long process… but I’m looking forward to it.   optimism!  who knew?!  just have to hold on… kind regards phase One month, 18 hours, 18 minutes and 45 seconds. —-== Posted via Newsfeed.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups —= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers – Total Privacy via Encryption =—

Response:

> protect my feelings, like I’m obligated to as a friend… when she’s > never really been my mind, I’ve only been hers.

that was supposed to say "when she’s never really been mine" —-== Posted via Newsfeed.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups —= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers – Total Privacy via Encryption =—

Response:

Phase, I am truly sorry about your friend.  Betrayals hurt like hell, don’t they? You’re doing the best you can by taking what positives you can take away from this situation; that speaks volumes about your character and you can feel pretty good about that. You can also feel pretty good about this: > phase > One month, 5 minutes and 44 seconds. =)

I’m glad to see you got your first month done there.  Congratulations hugs, elle — "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." -James Branch Cabell

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Hi Phase, this definately sounds like a "good riddance to bad rubbish" sort of relationship, I’ve had a few of those. The relief of them being over is almost, but not quite, worth having them in the first place. Sorta like banging your head against the wall and then noticing how good it feels when you finally stop. Seejee

<snipped> > Now I find that everything she said was a lie, all the excuses.  <snipped>  She’s not worth my time or my feelings.

<snipped>

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There ain’t no cloud so thick that the sun ain’t shinin’ on t’other side.- Rattlesnake,an 1870s mountain man (beliefnet quote the other day)

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FMD?  Phase that’s lovely!!  Start a new thread for congrats!! WHOO HOO, PHASE! You did it, and you will recover from what’s-her-name. Way to go, and stay strong DG

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Good evening, Phase, > I’m sorry that you are going through this. It’s that simple. I don’t > have the time to say all i want to right now, but I will be back > later. I just wanted you to know I care how you feel. I’ll be back > soon. > Hi, > Thanks … > I realized after posting I didn’t fully explain everything.  Any time I > saw her over the past month, which wasn’t that much, and usually when > she needed me to help her out, she’d maintain the story that she was > torn.  It almost always ended dramatically.  So… I allowed myself to > believe it, mostly that she didn’t want to be in a relationship right > now, she’s "not ready", too unstable.  And yeah okay I completely agree > with that, she’s fucked up, addicted to drugs (one of them nicotine, > another worse), likes to socialize, party, go places I wouldn’t be > caught dead.  I don’t know why, my emotions took over, I wouldn’t listen > to my own reason, not unlike how I ignore all my sensibilities when I > crave a cigarette.  And so for three months now, I’ve gone in and out of > depression, because things in my life weren’t going too well in the > first place. > Then like, this morning, I read on a web page journal of hers, she found > someone last week, she’s so happy, even though her parents aren’t keen > on the idea that he’s eight years older.  I think her parents’ > disapproval though is part of what drives her attraction towards guys, > because her parents actually like me.  That’s weird, because no > girlfriend’s parents have EVER liked me.  In one case our relationship > was forbidden, but that’s another story.  Anyway, they liked me probably > because I sat by her side for countless hours overnight in the emergency > room, then later in the hospital, when none of her friends bothered to > stay more than 5 minutes, and most of them didn’t even come at all.  We > were really close during that time.  And before that, we’d had some > romantic encounters I guess you could say.  but… the more she > recovered, the more distant she got, the less affectionate.  I think I > bored some of you on IRC with this story a month ago ok2bwild was > there, if I recall … > So besides being traumatized by the whole hospital incident (what > happened to her, it’s like my worst fear, and to see her helpless in the > ER for 12 hours with no one being able to help, no effective medication, > that’s something hard to forget) I kept feeling bad that it didn’t work > out, it felt so right.  I saw her from time to time last month, and we’d > be close again, we’d talk about a relationship, she’d have to think > about it, etc. > Now that she’s sort of revealed herself, going against everything she > told me was why we couldn’t be together, I feel good knowing that she’s > completely full of shit.  I guess it was a lot harder having this image > of perfection in my mind, even though it was far from perfect, and > coping with the loss of it.  I suspected she was taking advantage of me. > Now I guess I feel kind of vindicated.  Now it won’t hurt so much when > she asks me to do something and I have to say no to protect my feelings, > like I’m obligated to as a friend… when she’s never really been my > mind, I’ve only been hers. > A weight has been lifted.  it isn’t making me happy by any means, but > maybe it’ll end up being one less thing to dwell on.  Why waste my > thoughts & time on someone who doesn’t care.  I knew that logic before. > Now maybe I’ll be able to apply it. > phase > One month, 5 minutes and 44 seconds. =) > —-== Posted via Newsfeed.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- > http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups > —= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers – Total Privacy via Encryption

=—

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For months and months.. I’ve been despairing over a losing someone.  I was rejected, despite how much I gave, how much I cared.  In essence I gave much of my heart, and paid the price these past few months. The reasons she gave me why it couldn’t work, because of how she wants to be single for a while, I’m a few years older than her, we’re in different places in our lives.  Those all rang true to me; they were the same nagging doubts I had, except I pushed them aside and let my emotions take over.  There was definite chemistry between us.  we’d been through so much in so little time, due to some unfortunate circumstances.  we we could talk, make each other laugh, etc.  and every time we saw each other there was this closeness, intimacy, and at those times it seemed so right, and moreover, possible. Now I find that everything she said was a lie, all the excuses.  She’s "hooked up" with someone recently, someone many years older than I am.   And you know what, it feels good.  It feels good to finally be certain that she really was taking advantage of me, of how I was willing to help her out whenever she asked, how I was willing to be there for her when nobody else would.  Sure it was obvious to me how I only heard from her when she wanted something from me, but I never outright knew, because I thought that possibly she shared the same frustration as me: wanting to be together, but knowing that it can’t work, at least not now.  These thing she expressed to me, not just in words.  And I tell you, as upsetting as it may be that I was rejected for some other reason, it’s eclipsed by the joy I’m feeling to know that I don’t have to give her the time of day anymore, I don’t have to wonder if she’s as tormented as I, because, well, she’s not.  She’s not worth my time or my feelings. I have to thank her for doing more than Zyban (in its anti-depressant form) could ever do for me. I was gonna OT the subject but it’s kind of relevant: she’s one of the main reasons I’ve had major trouble quitting, and why I started up again in the first place. phase (nearing 1m..Three weeks, six days, 16 hours, 26 minutes and 46 seconds) —-== Posted via Newsfeed.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups —= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers – Total Privacy via Encryption =—

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You hot shit, you. And, you know – I think you have a sense of this – and I see it as clear as day – you are One Lucky Bastard! Never think otherwise! > Three weeks, six days, 16 hours, 26 minutes and 46 > seconds)

You GO, guy!!!! Tom HOF +

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Glad to see you’re hitting a month today – me too! Dealing with the opposite sex is always problematic, even when two people are crazy in love – but quitting smoking is just one person dealing with themself and can be forever! Keep working on it, I am – Marilynn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > For months and months.. I’ve been despairing over a losing someone.  I > was rejected, despite how much I gave, how much I cared.  In essence I > gave much of my heart, and paid the price these past few months. > The reasons she gave me why it couldn’t work, because of how she wants > to be single for a while, I’m a few years older than her, we’re in > different places in our lives.  Those all rang true to me; they were the > same nagging doubts I had, except I pushed them aside and let my > emotions take over.  There was definite chemistry between us.  we’d been > through so much in so little time, due to some unfortunate > circumstances.  we we could talk, make each other laugh, etc.  and every > time we saw each other there was this closeness, intimacy, and at those > times it seemed so right, and moreover, possible. > Now I find that everything she said was a lie, all the excuses.  She’s > "hooked up" with someone recently, someone many years older than I am.   > And you know what, it feels good.  It feels good to finally be certain > that she really was taking advantage of me, of how I was willing to help > her out whenever she asked, how I was willing to be there for her when > nobody else would.  Sure it was obvious to me how I only heard from her > when she wanted something from me, but I never outright knew, because I > thought that possibly she shared the same frustration as me: wanting to > be together, but knowing that it can’t work, at least not now.  These > thing she expressed to me, not just in words.  And I tell you, as > upsetting as it may be that I was rejected for some other reason, it’s > eclipsed by the joy I’m feeling to know that I don’t have to give her > the time of day anymore, I don’t have to wonder if she’s as tormented as > I, because, well, she’s not.  She’s not worth my time or my feelings. > I have to thank her for doing more than Zyban (in its anti-depressant > form) could ever do for me. > I was gonna OT the subject but it’s kind of relevant: she’s one of the > main reasons I’ve had major trouble quitting, and why I started up again > in the first place. > phase > (nearing 1m..Three weeks, six days, 16 hours, 26 minutes and 46 seconds) > —-== Posted via Newsfeed.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- > http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups > —= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers – Total Privacy via Encryption =—

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Good evening, Phase, I’m sorry that you are going through this. It’s that simple. I don’t have the time to say all i want to right now, but I will be back later. I just wanted you to know I care how you feel. I’ll be back soon. Lisa One week, three days, 39 minutes and 28 seconds. 200 cigarettes not smoked, saving $22.96. Life saved: 16 hours, 40 minutes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > For months and months.. I’ve been despairing over a losing someone.  I > was rejected, despite how much I gave, how much I cared.  In essence I > gave much of my heart, and paid the price these past few months. > The reasons she gave me why it couldn’t work, because of how she wants > to be single for a while, I’m a few years older than her, we’re in > different places in our lives.  Those all rang true to me; they were the > same nagging doubts I had, except I pushed them aside and let my > emotions take over.  There was definite chemistry between us.  we’d been > through so much in so little time, due to some unfortunate > circumstances.  we we could talk, make each other laugh, etc.  and every > time we saw each other there was this closeness, intimacy, and at those > times it seemed so right, and moreover, possible. > Now I find that everything she said was a lie, all the excuses.  She’s > "hooked up" with someone recently, someone many years older than I am.   > And you know what, it feels good.  It feels good to finally be certain > that she really was taking advantage of me, of how I was willing to help > her out whenever she asked, how I was willing to be there for her when > nobody else would.  Sure it was obvious to me how I only heard from her > when she wanted something from me, but I never outright knew, because I > thought that possibly she shared the same frustration as me: wanting to > be together, but knowing that it can’t work, at least not now.  These > thing she expressed to me, not just in words.  And I tell you, as > upsetting as it may be that I was rejected for some other reason, it’s > eclipsed by the joy I’m feeling to know that I don’t have to give her > the time of day anymore, I don’t have to wonder if she’s as tormented as > I, because, well, she’s not.  She’s not worth my time or my feelings. > I have to thank her for doing more than Zyban (in its anti-depressant > form) could ever do for me. > I was gonna OT the subject but it’s kind of relevant: she’s one of the > main reasons I’ve had major trouble quitting, and why I started up again > in the first place. > phase > (nearing 1m..Three weeks, six days, 16 hours, 26 minutes and 46 seconds) > —-== Posted via Newsfeed.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- > http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups > —= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers – Total Privacy via Encryption =—

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Mr Phase, I once had a 18 month quit under my belt, and guess what?  I started smoking again because of EXACTLY the situation that you write about here!!  I guess these problems are universal, no?  Don’t make the same mistake I did, Phase!!  Stay strong and stay off the smokes! -JoeD no smokes since 03 Oct 2001 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > For months and months.. I’ve been despairing over a losing someone.  I > …etc…

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