Today's Articles

• Article on FF Attitude Changes -

  Question:

  >Here is an interesting Article, which represents exactly how I (and many >others I know) are reacting to the airline industry’s present day attitude. >You can only treat your customers like dirt for so long before they rebel >you into bankruptcy. Agree or not, an interesting read: >http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/business/3403116.htm

  I think these guys are dreaming if they think the current fare structures are going away.  I’ve been flying AA full fare between ORD and LGA recently. The price is nearly identical to what it was pre-9/11 (at least through my corporate travel agency).  Additionally, every flight seems to be full. AA flys every hour and still half their flights are overbooked.  On Thursday at LGA I was on a 1pm return flight, tried to get there early to catch the 11 or 12.  Both flights oversold.  Only two standby passengers got on the 11.  AA was giving away vouchers to people volunteering to get bumped on the 12.  And the 1pm was oversold as well.  Where’s the depression in the industry? —

  Response:

  > > Totally agree with your last sentence.  Can we break the addiction of FF > miles? > If you look at Air Canada, I suspect that the difficulties in actually using > your miles would make it easy for one to perhaps consider another airline when > the later is more convenient. The only value of FF right now are the > "privileges" one gets when you get to a certain status (check-in lines, lounge > access etc), not the actual redemption of points for free flights.

  If you get to SuperElite, both are useful, actually. > This means that once you have obtained sufficent points to keep your status, > flying another airline doesn’t hurt the level of service you get from AC when > you are forced to fly with them.

  Still hurts though, because AC’s treatment of VFFS is still dichotomic.

  Response:

  It’s time for "full disclosure" of FF seats.  I propose that airlines be required list the number of seats they fly each month directly between city A and city B.  Then list how many of those seats were used by frequent flyers using the ‘normal’ amount of miles. I don’t think it’s possible to list the connections nor is it fair or practical to have them tell us ahead of time.  With full disclosure, we can at least see if FF miles are worth the effort if it’s not practical to redeem them.  Some enterprising programmer would take the data and make some nice charts on their web site. I’ve done a bit of research on Northwest’s FF seat availability during formerly blacked-out dates and posted them on the "comparisons" section of my web site.     Bob www.InternetTravelTips.com

  Here is an interesting Article, which represents exactly how I (and many others I know) are reacting to the airline industry’s present day attitude. You can only treat your customers like dirt for so long before they rebel you into bankruptcy. Agree or not, an interesting read: http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/business/3403116.htm

  Response:

  > I agree.  So what you are saying if the airlines did away with the miles, > and just gave you the perks like you mentioned based on the dollars spent or > number of miles flown, that this would make a major difference to the FF.

  The problem is that the FF programmes are profitable for airlines.  Remember that when you rack up points by using your credit card, the credit card company actually sends cash to the airline to purchase those points for you. Same with hotel, car rental etc etc. It costs nothing for the airline to give you points when you fly, and it costs nearly nothing for the airline to give you essentially an empty seat on a flight for free (food, landing fees, fuel). Of course, accountants make it look like it is a huge liability, costs the airline mega money etc, but those are just accounting tricks that don’t involve real money.

  Response:

  > I recall that one airline exec said that they need to make flying fun again. > Who said it was fun in the first place?

  I have had many flights on CP where the experience was fun and flying was part of the trip. The airport experience was just as important as in-flight service.

  Response:

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I believe the airlines as any business would count on the fact that they > believed the business flier was trapped.  The airlines could reduce service > and passengers would not rebel or change their preferred carrier.  With the > advent of the FF programs, that was another incentive NOT to change your > carrier.  The airlines realized that the FF had an "investment" in that > particular carrier.  The airlines kept pushing the envelope to see how far > they could reduce service. > With the imposed new security changes the airlines had an excuse not to give > FF’s preferred treatment.  Now this has precipitated into FFs saying they > will not fly as much, since i don’t really get any different treatment for > spending my significant dollars. > Unfortunately all of the FFs have had this power, but we chose not to > exercise it.

  I have a ridiculous amount of useless miles on every major airline. USELESS.  I am going to Greece next month, and paying for my ticket — and I tried to make my awards reservation 7 months ago, only to be told that there were no award seats available.  Delta, United, American, USAir… they all pulled that crap.  Now I fly *only* on Southwest, regardless of their fares (when I fly to a city served by it), because I can use their award tickets. They are not wasted, like on every other airline.   So maybe some of us our voting with our feet. Donna

  Response:

  > Totally agree with your last sentence.  Can we break the addiction of FF > miles?

  It’s not necessarily miles that attracts frequent flyers.  Features such as priority check-in and security lines, seating preference/reserved seating and early boarding, as well as upgrades, are more important to the frequent traveller. If the discount airlines offered something like this, they may well attract more frequent travellers.

  Response:

  >It’s not necessarily miles that attracts frequent flyers.  Features such >as priority check-in and security lines, seating preference/reserved >seating and early boarding, as well as upgrades, are more important to >the frequent traveller.

  That for sure! I almost don’t care about the miles – it’s all about the perks! I have flown about 70 segments on NW and CO so far this year (40K miles), ANYTHING that makes it more bearable will appeal to me. Being able to board first so I don’t have to fight for overhead space, not having to stand in a long checkin line, and F upgrades make my traveling life that much easier. And even as a lowly Silver Elite, I am upgraded 90% of the time. The actual miles? I have about 150K total on NW, I have used exactly ONE award ticket (18K miles used). Given that they are supremely reluctant to give upgrades on award tickets, I would rather just buy a ticket if possible. The one case was a short notice personal trip just for fun so the miles came in handy. Kevin Rhodes Westbrook, Maine

  Response:

  :>> >Northwest had opened a separate security line for first class and Worldperks :>> >elite passengers, but the government made them eliminate it when they took :>> >over security in the airports. :>> These lines are now back and they can be found at the MSP, DTW and :>> SFO airports, among others. :>AA has it at SJC CO at IAH. — http://www.dissensoftware.com

  Response:

  The hassle factor has been the main reason I don’t fly as often. To wit, I am an Elite Platinum with AA, which usually meant that I could get into first class. The advantage wasn’t the free drink or extra pretzels, it was the ability to get my roll-on stored in the overhead so I didn’t have to check it in and get off the plane in short order. With the random gate checks, that advantage has disappeared because by the time I get on the overheads are full. I now stay in coach on most legs, because even if I do get tapped for the gate shakedown I can still board ahead of most coach passengers and find some overhead space. I recall that one airline exec said that they need to make flying fun again. Who said it was fun in the first place? Pat Coughlin

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/business/3403116.htm > I agree with the article. Just surprise it took so long for the press to clue > in on this. After 9/11, the press kept saying that passengers welcomed all the > extra hassles of airport security, welcomed the militia armed with machine > guns at airports etc etc. And airlines were saying that those measures were > attracting passengers back. > Sounds strange that they are only now cluing in on the fact that it is those > very measures that are repelling passengers.

  Response:

  > Totally agree with your last sentence.  Can we break the addiction of FF > miles?

  If you look at Air Canada, I suspect that the difficulties in actually using your miles would make it easy for one to perhaps consider another airline when the later is more convenient. The only value of FF right now are the "privileges" one gets when you get to a certain status (check-in lines, lounge access etc), not the actual redemption of points for free flights. This means that once you have obtained sufficent points to keep your status, flying another airline doesn’t hurt the level of service you get from AC when you are forced to fly with them.

  Response:

  Article on FF Attitude Changes –  

  Here is an interesting Article, which represents exactly how I (and many others I know) are reacting to the airline industry’s present day attitude. You can only treat your customers like dirt for so long before they rebel you into bankruptcy. Agree or not, an interesting read: http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/business/3403116.htm The Plane Guy writes:

  I fully agree with the article.  Remember when United had that "We’re Back" (or something like that) ad campaign.  They admitted that they sucked and implied that they were were not going to suck anymore. Trouble is they still suck and so do most other airlines.  JetBlue, Virgin and Southwest seem to be the only airlines that I have flown that still care about customers. Maybe it has to do with the leadership.  JetBlue, Virgin and WN have outstanding CEO’s.  And their attitude passes down to their employees. The only thing we can do is boycott the bad ones and patrornize the good ones, even if you don’t earn the FF miles you want, until the bad ones hopefully become good again

  Response:

  > The Plane Guy writes: > I fully agree with the article.  Remember when United had that "We’re > Back" (or something like that) ad campaign.  They admitted that they > sucked and implied that they were were not going to suck anymore. > Trouble is they still suck and so do most other airlines.  JetBlue, > Virgin and Southwest seem to be the only airlines that I have flown that > still care about customers. > Maybe it has to do with the leadership.  JetBlue, Virgin and WN have > outstanding CEO’s.  And their attitude passes down to their employees. > The only thing we can do is boycott the bad ones and patrornize the good > ones, even if you don’t earn the FF miles you want, until the bad ones > hopefully become good again

  Totally agree with your last sentence.  Can we break the addiction of FF miles? So far I have not seen this happen.  We the consumer have left the service aspect slide.  We have no one to blame but ourselves! Wayne —

  Response:

  > From the article: > " Finding a way to get frequent business travelers back in the air is > vital to the airline industry’s recovering from its depression, > Mitchell said. One major carrier has said that while frequent > travelers make up only 7 percent or so of some major airlines’ > customers, they provide an estimated 40 percent of their revenue, and > the bulk of their profit, he said." > Which I believe, says it all.

  The original article and the above referenced quote indicates that the FF had the power to make changes in the airline industry, just withhold or curtail your airline travel budget, or travel on airlines which you do receive good service. I believe the airlines as any business would count on the fact that they believed the business flier was trapped.  The airlines could reduce service and passengers would not rebel or change their preferred carrier.  With the advent of the FF programs, that was another incentive NOT to change your carrier.  The airlines realized that the FF had an "investment" in that particular carrier.  The airlines kept pushing the envelope to see how far they could reduce service. With the imposed new security changes the airlines had an excuse not to give FF’s preferred treatment.  Now this has precipitated into FFs saying they will not fly as much, since i don’t really get any different treatment for spending my significant dollars. Unfortunately all of the FFs have had this power, but we chose not to exercise it. Wayne —

    saunders_wayne.vcf

  < 1K Download

  Response:

  >Northwest had opened a separate security line for first class and Worldperks >elite passengers, but the government made them eliminate it when they took >over security in the airports.  

  These lines are now back and they can be found at the MSP, DTW and SFO airports, among others. HTH, — – http://www-personal.umich.edu/~myke   = my web page            - – Michael Dautermann… U-M Alumni calling in from way out there –

  Response:

  > >Northwest had opened a separate security line for first class and Worldperks >elite passengers, but the government made them eliminate it when they took >over security in the airports. > These lines are now back and they can be found at the MSP, DTW and > SFO airports, among others.

  AA has it at SJC

  Response:

  > >Northwest had opened a separate security line for first class and Worldperks >elite passengers, but the government made them eliminate it when they took >over security in the airports. > These lines are now back and they can be found at the MSP, DTW and > SFO airports, among others.

  Wasn’t there a subtle change in the way the lines worked?   Originally, as I understood it, the airlines set up completely separate security stations for first class and elite passengers.  The government said that was unacceptable. Doesn’t the latest set up use two lines that feed into a single security site?  The government decided they couldn’t prevent the airlines from setting priorities on who is fed to the security stations, as long as security isn’t separated.

  Response:

  > Yep, and it’s not just security.  Perks for FFs continue to be cut back, > free seats and upgrades are harder than ever to get, services continue to > get cut back.  Who among us would fly if we didn’t absolutely have to?

  I have noted some officious behaviour by Qantas check-in staff, which may be limited to their bottom-tier FFs.  Being a United 1K and having to use a lot of OneWorld within Asia has meant revisiting the rigours of the bottom tier. Last week I was boarding at SYD and was with my colleagues – two QF Platinums, two Golds, and me (Bronze).  We went to the Platinum line, where the Golds and I were told to go to the other line.  Not long after, the Platinum line was empty and the same agent served us (no complaints there). At United’s 1K lines I have always been able to check in with a lower-status colleague and sometimes the free upgrade (in the US) has been extended to my colleague if available. Thankfully, our airports have recently dropped the requirement to remove the battery from laptops at the X-ray machine.

  Response:

  > Originally, as I understood it, the airlines set up completely separate > security stations for first class and elite passengers.  The government > said that was unacceptable.

  From the article: " Finding a way to get frequent business travelers back in the air is vital to the airline industry’s recovering from its depression, Mitchell said. One major carrier has said that while frequent travelers make up only 7 percent or so of some major airlines’ customers, they provide an estimated 40 percent of their revenue, and the bulk of their profit, he said." Which I believe, says it all.

  Response:

  - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >Northwest had opened a separate security line for first class and Worldperks > >elite passengers, but the government made them eliminate it when they took > >over security in the airports. > These lines are now back and they can be found at the MSP, DTW and > SFO airports, among others. > Wasn’t there a subtle change in the way the lines worked?   > Originally, as I understood it, the airlines set up completely separate > security stations for first class and elite passengers.  The government > said that was unacceptable. > Doesn’t the latest set up use two lines that feed into a single security > site?  The government decided they couldn’t prevent the airlines from > setting priorities on who is fed to the security stations, as long as > security isn’t separated.

  AA’s lines at ORD (T3) are distinct and separate – process is the same, it would appear. amp

  Response:

  > http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/business/3403116.htm > I agree with the article. Just surprise it took so long for the press to clue > in on this. After 9/11, the press kept saying that passengers welcomed all the > extra hassles of airport security, welcomed the militia armed with machine > guns at airports etc etc. And airlines were saying that those measures were > attracting passengers back.

  Good grief . . . I agree with you! All the security window dressing may have made casual flyers feel more secure, but it sure didn’t impress FFs, and the hassle factor has increased to an intolerable level.  It’s about time that the airlines woke up and realized where their bread is buttered (I loved that statistic: FFs are 7% of all flyers, but represent 40% of the revenue and most of the profit). > Sounds strange that they are only now cluing in on the fact that it is those > very measures that are repelling passengers.

  Yep, and it’s not just security.  Perks for FFs continue to be cut back, free seats and upgrades are harder than ever to get, services continue to get cut back.  Who among us would fly if we didn’t absolutely have to?

  Response:

  Northwest had opened a separate security line for first class and Worldperks elite passengers, but the government made them eliminate it when they took over security in the airports.  I know other airlines had done this also to help speed their most frequent/high revenue passengers through security, but the Feds said you can’t do that anymore. Deb

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/business/3403116.htm > I agree with the article. Just surprise it took so long for the press to > clue > in on this. After 9/11, the press kept saying that passengers welcomed all > the > extra hassles of airport security, welcomed the militia armed with machine > guns at airports etc etc. And airlines were saying that those measures > were > attracting passengers back. > Good grief . . . I agree with you! > All the security window dressing may have made casual flyers feel more > secure, but it sure didn’t impress FFs, and the hassle factor has increased > to an intolerable level.  It’s about time that the airlines woke up and > realized where their bread is buttered (I loved that statistic: FFs are 7% > of all flyers, but represent 40% of the revenue and most of the profit). > Sounds strange that they are only now cluing in on the fact that it is > those > very measures that are repelling passengers. > Yep, and it’s not just security.  Perks for FFs continue to be cut back, > free seats and upgrades are harder than ever to get, services continue to > get cut back.  Who among us would fly if we didn’t absolutely have to?

  Response:

  Here is an interesting Article, which represents exactly how I (and many others I know) are reacting to the airline industry’s present day attitude. You can only treat your customers like dirt for so long before they rebel you into bankruptcy. Agree or not, an interesting read: http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/business/3403116.htm

  Response:

  > http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/business/3403116.htm

  I agree with the article. Just surprise it took so long for the press to clue in on this. After 9/11, the press kept saying that passengers welcomed all the extra hassles of airport security, welcomed the militia armed with machine guns at airports etc etc. And airlines were saying that those measures were attracting passengers back. Sounds strange that they are only now cluing in on the fact that it is those very measures that are repelling passengers.

  Response:

  > http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/business/3403116.htm > I agree with the article. Just surprise it took so long for the press to clue > in on this. After 9/11, the press kept saying that passengers welcomed all the > extra hassles of airport security, welcomed the militia armed with machine > guns at airports etc etc. And airlines were saying that those measures were > attracting passengers back. > Sounds strange that they are only now cluing in on the fact that it is those > very measures that are repelling passengers.

  As an Air Canada regular PAX I flew 65 segments in 1999, 56 in 2000, 43 in 2001 and only 4 in 2002. I try to avoid Air Canada as much as possible. They tolerate me and I can no longer tolerate them. They could give a rat’s ass about their customers and ‘They Know It’.

  Response:

  No comments Recover from Depression
  
  

• Cat lethargic after fight

  Question:

  Perhaps a puncture wound (difficult to see them) that became infected? Definitely vet time. Cathy — "Staccato signals of constant information…" ("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Have a question for those in the know… > Our cat had a fight with another outdoor cat a week ago….she raced into > the house after I broke it up and since then has been very lethargic. > I checked her immediately for bleeding, lumps, bruises but found minimal > damage.  She continues to eat and drink though a bit less then normal. > Initially she did walk with a limp but that went away; still, she doesn’t > move very fast and will not leap up on stools or beds (though she will go up > and down stairs. > No whining, meowing or complaining…breath is normal. > My initial thought was just an emotional shock.  But now I’m wondering if > there is something more to it…she is taken to the vet every year…normal > weight and up to date on shots. > I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts? > Thanks

  Response:

  >>I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts? >Yes, take your kitty to a vet.

  Agreed. Lethargy is often a sign of fever, which may well indicate an infection. He may need antibiotics.

  Response:

  > Perhaps a puncture wound (difficult to see them) that became infected? > Definitely vet time. > Cathy

  Indeed. Some abcesses can be subcutaneous. She needs to see a vet. Happened to a friend of mine’s cat. The abcess finally rose to the surface and broke open, and the cat required stitches and antibiotics. SEE A VET. Karen

  Response:

  >>Our cat had a fight with another outdoor cat a week ago….she raced into >the house after I broke it up and since then has been very lethargic. >she is taken to the vet every year…normal >weight and up to date on shots. >I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts? >If she has had her rabies,4-in-1, FIP, and FLV shots there’s not much to >worry >about.

  The feleuk vaccination isn’t 100% reliable, and the FIP vacc is far less effective. I’d be more worried about a fighting cat catching FIP than anything else; but it can take months to show up in a blood test. Sherry

  Response:

  >I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts?

  Yes, take your kitty to a vet. =^..^= See my cats:   http://www.picturetrail.com/mickey4paws/703043

  Response:

  hi Laurence,    She could  have got an infection throught a scratch it bite. It would be a good idea to take to the vet for  a check up.             Alison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Have a question for those in the know… > Our cat had a fight with another outdoor cat a week ago….she raced into > the house after I broke it up and since then has been very lethargic. > I checked her immediately for bleeding, lumps, bruises but found minimal > damage.  She continues to eat and drink though a bit less then normal. > Initially she did walk with a limp but that went away; still, she doesn’t > move very fast and will not leap up on stools or beds (though she will go up > and down stairs. > No whining, meowing or complaining…breath is normal. > My initial thought was just an emotional shock.  But now I’m wondering if > there is something more to it…she is taken to the vet every year…normal > weight and up to date on shots. > I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts? > Thanks

  Response:

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Have a question for those in the know… > Our cat had a fight with another outdoor cat a week ago….she raced into > the house after I broke it up and since then has been very lethargic. > I checked her immediately for bleeding, lumps, bruises but found minimal > damage.  She continues to eat and drink though a bit less then normal. > Initially she did walk with a limp but that went away; still, she doesn’t > move very fast and will not leap up on stools or beds (though she will go up > and down stairs. > No whining, meowing or complaining…breath is normal. > My initial thought was just an emotional shock.  But now I’m wondering if > there is something more to it…she is taken to the vet every year…normal > weight and up to date on shots. > I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts? > Thanks

  It could just be post-battle depression. In his younger days, our siamese Oscar would always be depressed after a dust-up. He just could not understand aggression. However, it could also be a festering bite wound. They are often difficult to find as the less serious punctures heal very quickly but may turn into an abcess after a week or more. Keep checking her for any signs of tenderness and off to the vet if you find anything. Brian

  Response:

  >Our cat had a fight with another outdoor cat a week ago….she raced into >the house after I broke it up and since then has been very lethargic. >she is taken to the vet every year…normal >weight and up to date on shots. >I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts?

  If she has had her rabies,4-in-1, FIP, and FLV shots there’s not much to worry about. Sounds like she’s just brooding because she didn’t get to finish the fight. But, seriously, check that kidney function.  Once they shut down, it’s near impossible to get them pumping again. CPS. I never met a cat I didn’t like.

  Response:

  Have a question for those in the know… Our cat had a fight with another outdoor cat a week ago….she raced into the house after I broke it up and since then has been very lethargic. I checked her immediately for bleeding, lumps, bruises but found minimal damage.  She continues to eat and drink though a bit less then normal. Initially she did walk with a limp but that went away; still, she doesn’t move very fast and will not leap up on stools or beds (though she will go up and down stairs. No whining, meowing or complaining…breath is normal. My initial thought was just an emotional shock.  But now I’m wondering if there is something more to it…she is taken to the vet every year…normal weight and up to date on shots. I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts? Thanks

  Response:

  Have you taken her to see a vet after the fight?  This is not normal and there may be something wrong that you are missing. Kelly – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Have a question for those in the know… > Our cat had a fight with another outdoor cat a week ago….she raced into > the house after I broke it up and since then has been very lethargic. > I checked her immediately for bleeding, lumps, bruises but found minimal > damage.  She continues to eat and drink though a bit less then normal. > Initially she did walk with a limp but that went away; still, she doesn’t > move very fast and will not leap up on stools or beds (though she will go up > and down stairs. > No whining, meowing or complaining…breath is normal. > My initial thought was just an emotional shock.  But now I’m wondering if > there is something more to it…she is taken to the vet every year…normal > weight and up to date on shots. > I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts? > Thanks

  Response:

  Perhaps a puncture wound (difficult to see them) that became infected? Definitely vet time. Cathy — "Staccato signals of constant information…" ("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Have a question for those in the know… > Our cat had a fight with another outdoor cat a week ago….she raced into > the house after I broke it up and since then has been very lethargic. > I checked her immediately for bleeding, lumps, bruises but found minimal > damage.  She continues to eat and drink though a bit less then normal. > Initially she did walk with a limp but that went away; still, she doesn’t > move very fast and will not leap up on stools or beds (though she will go up > and down stairs. > No whining, meowing or complaining…breath is normal. > My initial thought was just an emotional shock.  But now I’m wondering if > there is something more to it…she is taken to the vet every year…normal > weight and up to date on shots. > I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts? > Thanks

  Response:

  >>I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts? >Yes, take your kitty to a vet.

  Agreed. Lethargy is often a sign of fever, which may well indicate an infection. He may need antibiotics.

  Response:

  > Perhaps a puncture wound (difficult to see them) that became infected? > Definitely vet time. > Cathy

  Indeed. Some abcesses can be subcutaneous. She needs to see a vet. Happened to a friend of mine’s cat. The abcess finally rose to the surface and broke open, and the cat required stitches and antibiotics. SEE A VET. Karen

  Response:

  >>Our cat had a fight with another outdoor cat a week ago….she raced into >the house after I broke it up and since then has been very lethargic. >she is taken to the vet every year…normal >weight and up to date on shots. >I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts? >If she has had her rabies,4-in-1, FIP, and FLV shots there’s not much to >worry >about.

  The feleuk vaccination isn’t 100% reliable, and the FIP vacc is far less effective. I’d be more worried about a fighting cat catching FIP than anything else; but it can take months to show up in a blood test. Sherry

  Response:

  >I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts?

  Yes, take your kitty to a vet. =^..^= See my cats:   http://www.picturetrail.com/mickey4paws/703043

  Response:

  hi Laurence,    She could  have got an infection throught a scratch it bite. It would be a good idea to take to the vet for  a check up.             Alison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Have a question for those in the know… > Our cat had a fight with another outdoor cat a week ago….she raced into > the house after I broke it up and since then has been very lethargic. > I checked her immediately for bleeding, lumps, bruises but found minimal > damage.  She continues to eat and drink though a bit less then normal. > Initially she did walk with a limp but that went away; still, she doesn’t > move very fast and will not leap up on stools or beds (though she will go up > and down stairs. > No whining, meowing or complaining…breath is normal. > My initial thought was just an emotional shock.  But now I’m wondering if > there is something more to it…she is taken to the vet every year…normal > weight and up to date on shots. > I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts? > Thanks

  Response:

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Have a question for those in the know… > Our cat had a fight with another outdoor cat a week ago….she raced into > the house after I broke it up and since then has been very lethargic. > I checked her immediately for bleeding, lumps, bruises but found minimal > damage.  She continues to eat and drink though a bit less then normal. > Initially she did walk with a limp but that went away; still, she doesn’t > move very fast and will not leap up on stools or beds (though she will go up > and down stairs. > No whining, meowing or complaining…breath is normal. > My initial thought was just an emotional shock.  But now I’m wondering if > there is something more to it…she is taken to the vet every year…normal > weight and up to date on shots. > I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts? > Thanks

  It could just be post-battle depression. In his younger days, our siamese Oscar would always be depressed after a dust-up. He just could not understand aggression. However, it could also be a festering bite wound. They are often difficult to find as the less serious punctures heal very quickly but may turn into an abcess after a week or more. Keep checking her for any signs of tenderness and off to the vet if you find anything. Brian

  Response:

  >Our cat had a fight with another outdoor cat a week ago….she raced into >the house after I broke it up and since then has been very lethargic. >she is taken to the vet every year…normal >weight and up to date on shots. >I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts?

  If she has had her rabies,4-in-1, FIP, and FLV shots there’s not much to worry about. Sounds like she’s just brooding because she didn’t get to finish the fight. But, seriously, check that kidney function.  Once they shut down, it’s near impossible to get them pumping again. CPS. I never met a cat I didn’t like.

  Response:

  Have a question for those in the know… Our cat had a fight with another outdoor cat a week ago….she raced into the house after I broke it up and since then has been very lethargic. I checked her immediately for bleeding, lumps, bruises but found minimal damage.  She continues to eat and drink though a bit less then normal. Initially she did walk with a limp but that went away; still, she doesn’t move very fast and will not leap up on stools or beds (though she will go up and down stairs. No whining, meowing or complaining…breath is normal. My initial thought was just an emotional shock.  But now I’m wondering if there is something more to it…she is taken to the vet every year…normal weight and up to date on shots. I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts? Thanks

  Response:

  Have you taken her to see a vet after the fight?  This is not normal and there may be something wrong that you are missing. Kelly – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Have a question for those in the know… > Our cat had a fight with another outdoor cat a week ago….she raced into > the house after I broke it up and since then has been very lethargic. > I checked her immediately for bleeding, lumps, bruises but found minimal > damage.  She continues to eat and drink though a bit less then normal. > Initially she did walk with a limp but that went away; still, she doesn’t > move very fast and will not leap up on stools or beds (though she will go up > and down stairs. > No whining, meowing or complaining…breath is normal. > My initial thought was just an emotional shock.  But now I’m wondering if > there is something more to it…she is taken to the vet every year…normal > weight and up to date on shots. > I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts? > Thanks

  Response:

  Perhaps a puncture wound (difficult to see them) that became infected? Definitely vet time. Cathy — "Staccato signals of constant information…" ("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Have a question for those in the know… > Our cat had a fight with another outdoor cat a week ago….she raced into > the house after I broke it up and since then has been very lethargic. > I checked her immediately for bleeding, lumps, bruises but found minimal > damage.  She continues to eat and drink though a bit less then normal. > Initially she did walk with a limp but that went away; still, she doesn’t > move very fast and will not leap up on stools or beds (though she will go up > and down stairs. > No whining, meowing or complaining…breath is normal. > My initial thought was just an emotional shock.  But now I’m wondering if > there is something more to it…she is taken to the vet every year…normal > weight and up to date on shots. > I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts? > Thanks

  Response:

  >>I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts? >Yes, take your kitty to a vet.

  Agreed. Lethargy is often a sign of fever, which may well indicate an infection. He may need antibiotics.

  Response:

  > Perhaps a puncture wound (difficult to see them) that became infected? > Definitely vet time. > Cathy

  Indeed. Some abcesses can be subcutaneous. She needs to see a vet. Happened to a friend of mine’s cat. The abcess finally rose to the surface and broke open, and the cat required stitches and antibiotics. SEE A VET. Karen

  Response:

  >>Our cat had a fight with another outdoor cat a week ago….she raced into >the house after I broke it up and since then has been very lethargic. >she is taken to the vet every year…normal >weight and up to date on shots. >I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts? >If she has had her rabies,4-in-1, FIP, and FLV shots there’s not much to >worry >about.

  The feleuk vaccination isn’t 100% reliable, and the FIP vacc is far less effective. I’d be more worried about a fighting cat catching FIP than anything else; but it can take months to show up in a blood test. Sherry

  Response:

  >I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts?

  Yes, take your kitty to a vet. =^..^= See my cats:   http://www.picturetrail.com/mickey4paws/703043

  Response:

  hi Laurence,    She could  have got an infection throught a scratch it bite. It would be a good idea to take to the vet for  a check up.             Alison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Have a question for those in the know… > Our cat had a fight with another outdoor cat a week ago….she raced into > the house after I broke it up and since then has been very lethargic. > I checked her immediately for bleeding, lumps, bruises but found minimal > damage.  She continues to eat and drink though a bit less then normal. > Initially she did walk with a limp but that went away; still, she doesn’t > move very fast and will not leap up on stools or beds (though she will go up > and down stairs. > No whining, meowing or complaining…breath is normal. > My initial thought was just an emotional shock.  But now I’m wondering if > there is something more to it…she is taken to the vet every year…normal > weight and up to date on shots. > I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts? > Thanks

  Response:

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Have a question for those in the know… > Our cat had a fight with another outdoor cat a week ago….she raced into > the house after I broke it up and since then has been very lethargic. > I checked her immediately for bleeding, lumps, bruises but found minimal > damage.  She continues to eat and drink though a bit less then normal. > Initially she did walk with a limp but that went away; still, she doesn’t > move very fast and will not leap up on stools or beds (though she will go up > and down stairs. > No whining, meowing or complaining…breath is normal. > My initial thought was just an emotional shock.  But now I’m wondering if > there is something more to it…she is taken to the vet every year…normal > weight and up to date on shots. > I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts? > Thanks

  It could just be post-battle depression. In his younger days, our siamese Oscar would always be depressed after a dust-up. He just could not understand aggression. However, it could also be a festering bite wound. They are often difficult to find as the less serious punctures heal very quickly but may turn into an abcess after a week or more. Keep checking her for any signs of tenderness and off to the vet if you find anything. Brian

  Response:

  >Our cat had a fight with another outdoor cat a week ago….she raced into >the house after I broke it up and since then has been very lethargic. >she is taken to the vet every year…normal >weight and up to date on shots. >I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts?

  If she has had her rabies,4-in-1, FIP, and FLV shots there’s not much to worry about. Sounds like she’s just brooding because she didn’t get to finish the fight. But, seriously, check that kidney function.  Once they shut down, it’s near impossible to get them pumping again. CPS. I never met a cat I didn’t like.

  Response:

  Have a question for those in the know… Our cat had a fight with another outdoor cat a week ago….she raced into the house after I broke it up and since then has been very lethargic. I checked her immediately for bleeding, lumps, bruises but found minimal damage.  She continues to eat and drink though a bit less then normal. Initially she did walk with a limp but that went away; still, she doesn’t move very fast and will not leap up on stools or beds (though she will go up and down stairs. No whining, meowing or complaining…breath is normal. My initial thought was just an emotional shock.  But now I’m wondering if there is something more to it…she is taken to the vet every year…normal weight and up to date on shots. I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts? Thanks

  Response:

  Have you taken her to see a vet after the fight?  This is not normal and there may be something wrong that you are missing. Kelly – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Have a question for those in the know… > Our cat had a fight with another outdoor cat a week ago….she raced into > the house after I broke it up and since then has been very lethargic. > I checked her immediately for bleeding, lumps, bruises but found minimal > damage.  She continues to eat and drink though a bit less then normal. > Initially she did walk with a limp but that went away; still, she doesn’t > move very fast and will not leap up on stools or beds (though she will go up > and down stairs. > No whining, meowing or complaining…breath is normal. > My initial thought was just an emotional shock.  But now I’m wondering if > there is something more to it…she is taken to the vet every year…normal > weight and up to date on shots. > I just don’t understand why she hasn’t recovered by now….any thoughts? > Thanks

  Response:

  No comments Recover from Depression
  
  

• An introduction and It's alwasys there

  Question:

  Hi AK, You’re making a lot of sense.  I have never been particularly suicidal, and there are people here who are more knowledgeable about the subject.  Perhaps you didn’t get responses because your post is complex and takes more thought. First of all, I’m so glad you’ve found the right therapist.  I think that’s the hardest thing to find, partly because you don’t know what to look for. Also because it expensive to interview a therapist; it involves paying for a visit! It seems that a lot of people who once think about suicide, keep it around as an option, like a tool, even after they no longer are tempted by it actively.  I’m a recovering alcoholic.  I’m not tempted to drink any more, but it is in my toolbox (the one in the attic).  If I just couldn’t cope, I’d know that alcohol was in the attic tool box with the other inferior tools.  I’d know I could get it, but also that it’s an ineffective, undesirable tool for me. I went to a self defense course a couple weeks ago.  Looking at the videos of it, I can see I was very relaxed, in spite of it being an extremely intense class.  All I can think of that could account for that is my experience with a past abuser, and how I dealt with it.  I didn’t deal with it well, because I didn’t stop the situation in an appropriately timely way. But I did know that I could withdraw and survive until an opportunity arose. Also, before I took out the restraining order, I considered worst case scenarios.  I might kill him, and go to jail for it, and all that jail implies.  So, now I know I could kill to save my life.  That also is a tool in my box that I never want to use.  And it’s an awareness that will probably stay with me for the rest of my life. Christina

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> x-no-archive:yes > Hello, > It’s been over a year now since I’ve though of suicide (I mean really > though as opposed to thought of it just idly, you know what I mean, I > think) and a bit less than a year since I’ve stopped feeling > depressed. > But it’s a funny thing that once you (or maybe just me?) make friends > with death like that, thinking about it all the time as this exit, the > idea never completely leaves your head. It’s like an internal scar. It > doesn’t even hurt any more, but it’s still there. So I’ll be walking > along thinking about for example how I haven’t made any close friends > in this new place where I live (which is OK, it’s only been a short > time and I’m sure some of the aquaintances will turn into firends > eventually) and the thought suggests itself, well, there’s always > death, the one exit. > And now there is no emotional connection. I don’t feel the impact of > the thought. Just: well, that’s silly. Of course I don’t want to do > that. But the thought is there, and I guess it will always be there, > even though it doesn’t hurt and it doesn’t tempt me. > The good side of this is that I have thought about death a lot and I’m > actually not scared of dying at all. I feel like I almost died, but I > was saved, or I saved myself I guess by having the sense to get a good > therapist, and so my current life I feel is not like something that is > owed to me, but a kind of gift. I am very glad I have it, and I like > it very much and want to keep it, but I don’t feel scared about it > ending. > And another funny thing is that even though I’m not depressed any more > it comes up sometimes in strange situation that I was and it freaks > people out. Like I was walking across this beautiful and very big > bridge with a friend, and he made a joke about how this would be a > good place to jump, because there were rocks below. He didn’t know > about my history and I said how I felt about the technicalities of the > jump (won’t go into detail here) and that I had given these things a > lot of though it the past. Now I am happy I can walk across the bridge > and look down and feel perfectly safe with myself. A good thing or I > wouldn’t have seen the seal that was swimming under the bridge. I > didn’t know they came so close to people. Anyway, so this friend was > kind of freaked out by what I told him. I guess he thought he was > being funny or badass by making the joke and was worried I was > offended. And I wasn’t really, but it felt strange to realize that > what for him was just black humor had been a reality from me. > I know from reading this group a bit that some of you guys are > struggling through depression and some are closer to happy than > others. I guss I just wanted to say that it’s possible to get to the > other side. It takes a while, and the expericne is not something you > can leave behind and forget, but it’s possible. > This is kind of long and rambling and hopefully  will make some sense. > I just wanted to share a bit of my experience with people who will > probably understand. > – ak > (when replying please write x-no-archive:yes at the very top of your > reply, before any other text)

  Response:

  I like your anology of suicide as a tool in the tool box, just not a very good one.  I have been trying for years to find a way to describe what it means to me and yours seems to fit.  I know it is there if I want to use it but I also know that it does not work to solve the problem.  The only time I think I would disagree with taking ones life is if the person was terminally ill.  To me though that is a very different issue though from the suicide I talk about in my own life. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >It seems that a lot of people who once think about suicide, keep it around >as an option, like a tool, even after they no longer are tempted by it >actively.  I’m a recovering alcoholic.  I’m not tempted to drink any more, >but it is in my toolbox (the one in the attic).  If I just couldn’t cope, >I’d know that alcohol was in the attic tool box with the other inferior >tools.  I’d know I could get it, but also that it’s an ineffective, >undesirable tool for me.

  Response:

  No comments Recover from Depression
  
  

• how can i get past the anger and guilt? pls read all if u can thx

  Question:

  If you have the time please listen.  If not, thanks anway  But it will feel good to just let some stuff off my chest.  I can’t really get into everything or it would take a VERY LONG TIME to write.  I’m just having a hard time dealing with guilt.  Has anybody out there ever had to deal with it?  Overcome it?  My guilt is alot my fault.  Is it my fault i’ve felt depressed and made the wrong decisions?  I don’t know, I would hope not.  I’m only 23.  It’s taken me alot longer to grow up and mature.  I was sheltered a long time and lived with very strict religious parents.  I wasn’t exposed to the "real world" until I was like 18.  Which is the time I met my girlfriend.  Ever since I met her, it seems I’ve gone through my stupid stage in life.  The bad thing is, she’s ALWAYS been there for me, cared for me, loved me, complimented me in ever way, always giving me anything I’ve wanted.  She went through tough times before I met her.  I believe girls in general seem to mature faster and go through those stupid stages alot earlier than guys seem too.  I honestly think that everybody has to go through them sometime in their life, more go through it in high school, rather than like me at 21, 22, 23.  My girlfriend and I had a screwed up relationship from the start.  I should have known better anyway to start off so serious.  I was dealing with social anxiety/depression at the time.  Anyway i can’t explain everything, but just put it this way, from the start things weren’t healthy.  Both situations weren’t healthy for a normal relationship to work.  But being young and nieve and very gullible i stuck with her.  I loved her, but going through my depression and all I didn’t love myself.  I was immature.  Ok well on throughout the relationship we had our ups and downs. She was my first and this just drew me closer.  But then came my stupid stage. The alcohol the pot, the going out wanting to explore.  Everything was becoming new to me.  During these times plus still dealing with my depression/anxiety (not even knowing i really had it at the time) i treated her like shit during these times.  I verbally abused her, we even got into shoving matches.  She’s italian, believe me she has her temper too, but i wouldn’t blame her, dealing with someone unhealthy and immature like me.  Anyway that and alot more BS went on for a long time.  All together we’ve been together for about 5 years, i’m now 23.  She still stuck with me.  Finally this past year I had some close relatives die.  I also was blessed with having a baby boy with her.  But I know this is going to be hard.  It made me mature and sober up.  I will say for the past 8 months i’ve gone to a psychiatrist and my regular doctor.  I’ve put myself back into shape and have been eating healthy.  Trying to find the right anti depressants to get my mind back on track.  Stayed off the pot and alcohol, and I know not to EVER go back to it, it only leads down the wrong path.  If using it for the reasons I used it for.  I will have a glass a wine every now and then.  But this new sober life has been hard.  The past creeps me and has caught up with me.  I can’t seem to let go of the past.  I feel so ashamed of how i treated my girlfriend.  During this past year I can’t even stand to be around her and be nice.  It’s like I feel so disgusted with myself and the past, that i feel sick to be nice to her.  I sometimes will still be very rude and an asshole to her.  It’s like I don’t even mean to be, it’s like this guilt that makes me do it.  I’ve treated her bad for so long, and she never deserved it.  She truely loves me, I’m starting to realize how much I love her since I’ve started loving myself for once.  But I can’t open up to her yet, when I look at her all I can think of is the past.  I know a good idea is therapy. But I don’t know if it’s too late.  I don’t know if anybody can recover with ALL we’ve been through.  If it’s worth it.  I know our son is involved now.  I want everything to be right.  Do you think it’s possible.  Do you think it’s worth one more round.  I know the %’s of couples in these situations is probably not high in getting back and being happy, but there’s got to be some hope.  Take care, and if you read this story thanks very much.  Any support would be a big help. C. Miller

  Response:

  (Not grandiosely and presumptiously emailed, but POSTED only!)

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> If you have the time please listen.  If not, thanks anway  But it will feel > good to just let some stuff off my chest.  I can’t really get into everything > or it would take a VERY LONG TIME to write.  I’m just having a hard time > dealing with guilt.  Has anybody out there ever had to deal with it? Overcome > it?  My guilt is alot my fault.  Is it my fault i’ve felt depressed and made > the wrong decisions?  I don’t know, I would hope not.  I’m only 23.  It’s taken > me alot longer to grow up and mature.  I was sheltered a long time and lived > with very strict religious parents.  I wasn’t exposed to the "real world" until > I was like 18.  Which is the time I met my girlfriend.  Ever since I met her, > it seems I’ve gone through my stupid stage in life.  The bad thing is, she’s > ALWAYS been there for me, cared for me, loved me, complimented me in ever way, > always giving me anything I’ve wanted.  She went through tough times before I > met her.  I believe girls in general seem to mature faster and go through those > stupid stages alot earlier than guys seem too.  I honestly think that everybody > has to go through them sometime in their life, more go through it in high > school, rather than like me at 21, 22, 23.  My girlfriend and I had a screwed > up relationship from the start.  I should have known better anyway to start off > so serious.  I was dealing with social anxiety/depression at the time. Anyway > i can’t explain everything, but just put it this way, from the start things > weren’t healthy.  Both situations weren’t healthy for a normal relationship to > work.  But being young and nieve and very gullible i stuck with her.  I loved > her, but going through my depression and all I didn’t love myself.  I was > immature.  Ok well on throughout the relationship we had our ups and downs. > She was my first and this just drew me closer.  But then came my stupid stage. > The alcohol the pot, the going out wanting to explore.  Everything was becoming > new to me.  During these times plus still dealing with my depression/anxiety > (not even knowing i really had it at the time) i treated her like shit during > these times.  I verbally abused her, we even got into shoving matches. She’s > italian, believe me she has her temper too, but i wouldn’t blame her, dealing > with someone unhealthy and immature like me.  Anyway that and alot more BS went > on for a long time.  All together we’ve been together for about 5 years, i’m > now 23.  She still stuck with me.  Finally this past year I had some close > relatives die.  I also was blessed with having a baby boy with her.  But I know > this is going to be hard.  It made me mature and sober up.  I will say for the > past 8 months i’ve gone to a psychiatrist and my regular doctor.  I’ve put > myself back into shape and have been eating healthy.  Trying to find the right > anti depressants to get my mind back on track.  Stayed off the pot and alcohol, > and I know not to EVER go back to it, it only leads down the wrong path. If > using it for the reasons I used it for.  I will have a glass a wine every now > and then.  But this new sober life has been hard.  The past creeps me and has > caught up with me.  I can’t seem to let go of the past.  I feel so ashamed of > how i treated my girlfriend.  During this past year I can’t even stand to be > around her and be nice.  It’s like I feel so disgusted with myself and the > past, that i feel sick to be nice to her.  I sometimes will still be very rude > and an asshole to her.  It’s like I don’t even mean to be, it’s like this guilt > that makes me do it.  I’ve treated her bad for so long, and she never deserved > it.  She truely loves me, I’m starting to realize how much I love her since > I’ve started loving myself for once.  But I can’t open up to her yet, when I > look at her all I can think of is the past.  I know a good idea is therapy. > But I don’t know if it’s too late.  I don’t know if anybody can recover with > ALL we’ve been through.  If it’s worth it.  I know our son is involved now.  I > want everything to be right.  Do you think it’s possible.  Do you think it’s > worth one more round.  I know the %’s of couples in these situations is > probably not high in getting back and being happy, but there’s got to be some > hope.  Take care, and if you read this story thanks very m uch.  Any support > would be a big help. > ]

  You must be a really good person. You are assuming responsibility for your part. And its so much better to be a good person, than one who wishes to be seen as a right person. No one is perfect, or good all the time. Accepting you’re just like everyone else, therefore imperfect, faultfilled, capable of much good, but also capable of pettiness, and rudeness, and being plain bad, and ugly minded is good thing for you to do.  . Everyone does all kinds of stupid, petty, bad, ugly, really shitty things. Only those who refuse to accept responsibility for their actions, and seek to scapegoat others, rather than admit and forgive themselves for their pettyness, and ugly mindedness wind up lifelong headcases. If you can accept your faults, and forgive yourself when you err, you will do fine in this life. Its definitely not too late for you to work with a counselor on it. Given your qualms, might make arrangedments to see a counselor, only once every 6 weeks. 73% of depression sufferers seen by a counselor just once every six weeks recovered FULLY from depression, including guilt feelings associated with depression, by such counseling alone.  . Go for it! (PS.  Stay off this ng.  It is being trolled by people whose specialty is exploiting sufferers of depression low self worth, and proneness to feelings of guilt. ) . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> C. Miller

  Response:

  No comments Recover from Depression
  
  

• Addiction as a "mood stabilizer" (long)

  Question:

  > >Not with sex addicts > This sex addiction business? How does one join up?

  Call me for an appointment.  Only problem is, I’ve been known to have the treament take a long, long, long long, long, time  ;-)

  Response:

  > Its not that *smoking* helps, its that the > relief from the constant struggle to not smoke helps if the > person is well beyond the point where they can deal with > everything on their plate at that point.

  Yeah, that’s it, exactly. > I fully agree that there are certain attitudes that undermine a > quit, but by the same token we need to keep it real. Sometimes > this group gets a tad fanatical about smoking being the worst > thing a person can do, and I sincerely believe it is not. It > *is* however what we are here to overcome and help each other to > overcome, and as we know that a large part of quitting is > mental, it is right and proper that cognition attract a > disproportionate amount of commentary.

  Well said. > Personally, I have not had so much trouble fighting off cravings > for cigarettes during this quit, but it has instead raised the > spectres of alcoholism and depression- demons I thought I had > got well under control. I’m doing all the right things to deal > with them now, but I *know* that for me, smoking is not the > worst thing I can do, and that I may not always have the > strength that I have now.

  Yeah, I see what you’re saying.  IMHO, it’s a good thing for other people here if you put that right on out here on as3.  There are a LOT of people going through the same thing, and I’ll bet you can help with that. > I love being a non smoker- I don’t want to give up my new found > freedom for anything. But I get pissy when depression is > discussed as though it were a mood or something that a pill can > cure. I’m not saying that you do that… just letting you know > that there’s more than one bug up my arse

  A sensitivity which I can totally understand.  I personally get the old bug way up my ass when people start talking about depression like it’s some kind of self-indulgent "moodiness."  The way I see it, depression is an inability to experience the moods we take for granted when we’re not depressed. Great post, GG.  I’m so glad your quit is feeling so good!  You sound terrific! ep  dof

  Response:

  >>The word "addict" doesn’t have to be negative, at least I don’t think so.

  BINGO! i believe that some folks really CRINGE when the word addict is connected to a nicotine habit. somehow some folks believe that smoking is a "step up" from other addictions, and the word addict should be reserved for "those" not me! i work in the field of addiction, and the behavior of ADDICTS, no matter what the drug, is all the same! rosie OOF Today’s youth are disrespectful and undisciplined.

  Response:

  > > Anyone who can’t see that should thank their lucky stars that > experience hasn’t given them such insight and start supporting > and stop fucking judging the rest. > Georgie.

  BINGO!

  Response:

  >  If somebody says "My quit is better than your quit > because I didn’t use NRT," I think that’s judgmental and it has bullshit > results.

  I have NEVER said that for the record EP. NEVER. I don’t give a rats ass how one goes about quitting. Just remember that with NRT you are still and addict to nicotine or dependent. And for the record most persons who go to Methadone never quit. Methadone is used to keep the herion addict from shooting up and going through withdrawals. I only know of ONE person who was on methadone that quit. Most just keep on increasing their dosages. And for the record methadone is MUCH harder to quit tha herion. Just because you *think* I am against NRT you choose and have chosen to verbally and very ABUSIVELY attack me on numerous occassions. So let this be known today. I have NO problem with the word addiction. It is not a nasty word to me. If one choses to be hooked on NRT’s and be a nicotine addict for the rest of their lives so they NEVER SMOKE again BRAVO to them. I commend them for that as it is FAR better than smoking and much more healthy. No doubt about. Gwen

  Response:

  On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 "Edna Pearl" posted: > The ’seriousness’ of smoking needs to be addressed at a very early > age, and reinforced into adulthood.  Neither the taking up of the > ‘habit’ nor the trying to end it should be taken at all lightly. >Well said.

  At the risk of bursting into song, I’m waiting for the politically correct rendition of that old country favorite to become: "Mama, don’t let your children grow up to be smokers…" Mike OF+ — "My brain is like a troublesome sponge!"

  Response:

  I’m not responding to anyone’s post in this thread in particular, but I do have something to say. My belief is that quitting an addiction is just that…halting, stopping, avoiding, no longer participating in, whatever words you want to put to it. It is a commitment to changing your most basic responses to how you deal with things that affect you both internally and externally. Whether you accomplish this change by reaffirming it every day or by going for broke and saying "no more ever again" obviously is an individual decision. That said, I think it’s very, very dangerous to negoiate, if you will, about what might cause one to return to the addiction. This is my personal story, take it for what it’s worth. After I quit smoking this last time, I crashed hard. At two months I was in such bad shape, I couldn’t imagine living in my own head anymore. Finally I realized I needed professional help. Even so, I could barely function enough just to get myself to a doctor. I did though…I saw several doctors and finally a psychiatrist. She put me on an antidepressant, but even so relief was many weeks in coming. I only mention this because I think it’s important to understand the background when I say that through all of it, I held steadfast to my commitment that smoking wasn’t an option. Hell, I was terrified if I started again, I’d end up in even worse shape, or at the very least, have to go through those first few months all over again as I tried to withdraw from the very thing that had masked my symptoms for so long. Instead of reaching for a cigarette to get me by all of life’s crises, what if I hadn’t been a smoker? Would I have realized something was wrong and have gotten help sooner? Would I have even gone through those rotten several months when I didn’t care if I lived or died if I’d never started smoking at all? I really like to think it never would have gotten to that point. No, I’ll put it more strongly, I’m absolutely *convinced* it never would have. My advice…don’t play with fire by making bargains with yourself about when the circumstances might be right to resume your addiction. Deals like that often turn into self-fulfilling prophecies. Try to reject the idea that it’s either smoking or some truly dreadful thing will happen. There’s always another solution.   Cindy VOF Courseware Design & Development                    Columbus, Ohio 43210 Office of Information Technology                   614/292-9689

  Response:

  I wrote a post, actually two, but I don’t think I’m sending either one out.  This says it all. Sorry I snipped so much, but I wanted to focus on the words below.  You really captured it in an nutshell. Diane M. (off to bed after a hard workout at the gym, and 366 odat’s) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I don’t see a mental breakdown or a major bout of mental illness > as a *temptation* to smoke, nor as an *excuse*. One *can* quit > again- its hard, yes, but not as fucking hard as scraping up the > remanants of what was you after you slid over the brink. > *Nothing* is worth a mental breakdown. Certainly not a fucking > quit. > Anyone who can’t see that should thank their lucky stars that > experience hasn’t given them such insight and start supporting > and stop fucking judging the rest. > Georgie.

  Response:

  > It made me hot.

  You were born hot.  Yeow! > I agree mostly, but would add that quitting ciggies is one of the few > addictions that most people try to break on their lonesome.

  Yeah, ain’t that it.  I swear, if they put us in a hospital ward and gave us a bunch of talking therapy, occupational therapy, and medication, maybe we’d have a better concept of how hard it is to quit and be less critical of ourselves! > Both > camps, those who are trapped in the addiction and those kibbitzing > from the sidelines, are staffed mainly by amateurs, so there’s a > million theories and schemes and folk wisdoms, some better than > others, some not so good.  Also, it’s easy to lapse because society is > so accepting of the behavior in the first place.  People can become > conflicted re tobacco via the politics, health warnings, friends, > parents, the media, etc.

  Yeah, I was trying to make that point exactly, thanks. > The ’seriousness’ of smoking needs to be addressed at a very early > age, and reinforced into adulthood.  Neither the taking up of the > ‘habit’ nor the trying to end it should be taken at all lightly.

  Well said. > Take care, Ms Pearl,

  You too, pinhead  :-) > el pinheado

  ep  dof

  Response:

  > "Addiction" is just a word, apparently one with strong negative > connotations.  Dependence might be a better term, if you feel the need to > label it.

  Good point. > At the risk of being contentious, Edna, you’re talking about a very small > sub-set of the "addictions" category.  An important one, no doubt, but > it’s just as important to NOT imply that alcoholics, amphetamine abusers, > people dependent on pot, etc. fall into that category because they don’t.

  You’re probably right there.  So maybe this is one of the ways tobacco addiction differs from other addictions.  And maybe this is one of the peculiarities of tobacco addiction that makes it hard to beat — we need replacement therapy and/or medication longer to stay off our drug of choice than other types of addicts do????  I dunno; it’s just an interesting question to me.  I DO know it’s damned hard to quit smoking though. > Only because of the negative connotation you place on the word "addict." > The word "addict" doesn’t have to be negative, at least I don’t think so. > Would you deny that NRT users (and I was one and would be still if I felt > it would help me maintain my quit, so don’t think I’m anti-NRT or consider > people who employ NRT as anything less than true non-smokers) are > dependent on their NRT of choice?

  Actually, I can’t even wrap my mind around the question.  I’m not sure the answer matters  :-)  I don’t give a rat’s ass whether I’m dependent on NRT, or toothpicks, or Listerine "breath strips," or whatever, as long as I don’t smoke.  But I do see your point, and I like the issues you’re raising a lot. > If not, why is "dependence" a less > inflammatory word than "addiction"–and is it possible that you and Gwen > (and many others) are using different terms to mean the same thing?

  I don’t think it’s just semantics.  I think it’s a question of results.  If somebody says, "NRT addiction is no better than cigarette addiction, so I’ll smoke," I think that’s bullshit because the results are bullshit.  If somebody says, "I’m strung out on NRT so I might as well smoke," I think the results are bullshit.  If somebody says "My quit is better than your quit because I didn’t use NRT," I think that’s judgmental and it has bullshit results.  If somebody says, "You’re an addict because you’re still on NRT," I think that’s belittling and bullshit and destructive and I’ll say so. Words can be important.  Getting and staying quit is a lot more important > Cold turkey didn’t interest me in the least–I loved my patches  :-)

  Patches burn a hole in my skin.  But my gum helped a lot! ep  dof

  Response:

  >If it’s a choice between smoking and suicide, then smoke.  That’s a >no-brainer.

  enuff said! rosie OOF (also a depressive who is a recovering alcoholic, and addict)

  Response:

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> There is a BIG difference in your analogy here. With quitting smoking > it is STILL very acceptable to ingest NICOTINE, ie NRT’s. > Where as with any other type of addiction be it alcohol, herion, > cocaine, valium etc it is NOT acceptable to continue ingesting > said drug even if your prefered method is shooting up said drug > why not just start snorting it. > You are incorrect.  In fact, replacement therapy IS an acceptable, proven, > recommended way to treat MANY addictions. > I happen to be close to a former street-narcotics addict.  He will take > methadone for the rest of his life.  If he doesn’t, he will almost certainly > go back to street drugs.  If he goes back to street drugs, he will be dead > within two years.  Methadone is a narcotic, it is a "replacement therapy" > for narcotics addiction.  It’s called "treatment."  NRT is also "treatment." > It works.  It saves lives.  It’s not an "addiction" unless you pervert the > word "addiction."  (As one of our as3 members’ doctors recently explained.) > When barb addicts, benzo addicts, whatever addicts, go into a rehab, they > are treated with REPLACEMENT therapies during withdrawal.  Back when I still > knew something about this stuff, librium was replacement therapy of choice > for someone withdrawing from alcohol.  It’s called TREATMENT.  It works.  It > saves lives.

  Librium still is the treatment of choice for alcohol withdrawal (the symptoms of which can be fatal).  Note that Librium (or any other drug) is NOT a treatment for *alcoholism* nor is it a replacement therapy.  AFAIK, only methadone is a true "replacement therapy" and it simply replaces the addict’s need for heroin with a different narcotic, one that doesn’t (in theory) give the user the high one experiences with heroin.  I’ve been told (by one who knows) that withdrawal from methadone was more difficult–for him–than withdrawal from heroin, FWIW. > Bullshit.  You are the one making ridiculous (and dangerous) comparisons.  A > person on NRT is not killing themselves with the poisons in cigarettes.  A > person on NRT is recovering with the assistance of nicotine as a medication. > I don’t know what the recommended treatment is for crack recovery, but I > doubt it includes lethal substances like cocaine or cigarettes.  And I’m > damn sure it includes medication.

  Again, an important distinction:  only the symptoms of *withdrawal* are treated, and only in the very short term (as in a few days). > <snip> all anyone here cares about it NOT smoking > and really no one has a problem with the "real" addiction of nicotine. > Long as ya don’t light up a cancer stick it is "A" 110% OK to continue > the nicotine addiction for the rest of ones life. > That is precisely my attitude on the issue.  Bingo.  Well said.  :-)  Except > that I object to the characterization of NRT use as an "addiction."  That is > a dangerous perversion of the word, "addiction," IMHO.  Cigarettes will make > you stink, cough, lie to yourself, waste your money, and die.  Cigarettes > kill.  In contrast, nicotine replacement therapy SAVES LIVES.

  "Addiction" is just a word, apparently one with strong negative connotations.  Dependence might be a better term, if you feel the need to label it. > Most addictions one has to stop ALL and or any type of ingesting said > drug. > Again, this is an assertion that is misleading at best and false in many > cases.  Again, some former narcotics addicts stay on methadone FOR THEIR > ENTIRE LIVES.  If they quit methadone they will DIE.  Methadone makes it > possible for these FORMER addicts to lead productive lives, save money, hold > down a job, regulate their narcotics intake, and abide by the law.

  At the risk of being contentious, Edna, you’re talking about a very small sub-set of the "addictions" category.  An important one, no doubt, but it’s just as important to NOT imply that alcoholics, amphetamine abusers, people dependent on pot, etc. fall into that category because they don’t. > If some people need to take NRT or DIE from smoking, then god bless NRT. > NRT SAVES LIVES.  And far be it from me to judge such people.  Far be it > from me to call them names, like "addict."  To call someone who is on NRT an > "addict’ is, IMNSHO, meaningless, meanspirited, judgmental, narrow-minded, > and counter-productive to the goal of quitting smoking.  It does nobody any > good and is just another example of how passing negative judgments can hurt > other people.  People who are trying to recover from a life-threatening > addiction.

  Only because of the negative connotation you place on the word "addict."   The word "addict" doesn’t have to be negative, at least I don’t think so. Would you deny that NRT users (and I was one and would be still if I felt it would help me maintain my quit, so don’t think I’m anti-NRT or consider people who employ NRT as anything less than true non-smokers) are dependent on their NRT of choice?  If not, why is "dependence" a less inflammatory word than "addiction"–and is it possible that you and Gwen (and many others) are using different terms to mean the same thing? > Mind you, I think CT is a great way to go, too, for some people.  Some > people get their minds in the zone and they are ready to quit CT and using > NRT would just be a distraction from the zone their heads need to be in to > stay addiction-free.  The Allen Carr method is a great example of this. > Allen Carr’s method works.  So does NRT.  We all have to find our own way > out of our own personal mazes.  And passing ill-informed judgments on other > adults based on irrational prejudices about NRT and ignorant assumptions > about addiction isn’t going to help anybody out of the maze, IMNSHO.  YMMV.

  Cold turkey didn’t interest me in the least–I loved my patches  :-)

  Response:

  <snips> >I got something I gotta get off my chest.  YMMV.  FWIW.  All the usual >disclaimers.

  It made me hot. I agree mostly, but would add that quitting ciggies is one of the few addictions that most people try to break on their lonesome.  Both camps, those who are trapped in the addiction and those kibbitzing from the sidelines, are staffed mainly by amateurs, so there’s a million theories and schemes and folk wisdoms, some better than others, some not so good.  Also, it’s easy to lapse because society is so accepting of the behavior in the first place.  People can become conflicted re tobacco via the politics, health warnings, friends, parents, the media, etc. The ’seriousness’ of smoking needs to be addressed at a very early age, and reinforced into adulthood.  Neither the taking up of the ‘habit’ nor the trying to end it should be taken at all lightly. Take care, Ms Pearl, el pinheado OF+ — "My brain is like a troublesome sponge!"

  Response:

  Wow. You’re a real *sshole aren’t you Gwen? NRT works for a ton of people (myself included) with very few people becoming *addicted* to their NRT method. And for the ones who do stay on NRT forever….. So what? It’s their business and in the small doses NRT delivers it isn’t any more harmful than caffeine. Just a slight stimulant and mild vaso-constrictor. Tobacco is the "dirty syringe" of nicotine delivery systems and is our real nemisis. Using alternative safe methods to taper off of this drug while we concentrate on breaking the insidious cycle of long term conditioning is highly effective and desirable. Except I think to sanctimonious prigs like yourself. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I got something I gotta get off my chest.  YMMV.  FWIW.  All the usual > disclaimers. > There is a BIG difference in your analogy here. With quitting smoking > it is STILL very acceptable to ingest NICOTINE, ie NRT’s. > Where as with any other type of addiction be it alcohol, herion, > cocaine, valium etc it is NOT acceptable to continue ingesting > said drug even if your prefered method is shooting up said drug > why not just start snorting it. > I think there in lies some of the reason it  is so lack as it is tolerated > and or allowable means to quit smoking while continuing to get > your "fix" with said drug, ie nicotine. Therefore it makes sense > to me why people feel the way they do or can feel the way the do. > Why not just give all the "crack" heads snortable cocaine instead > while they are quitting their "crack" addiction. > But I know no one will see the dynamics of this and it will turn > into all out flame since all anyone here cares about it NOT smoking > and really no one has a problem with the "real" addiction of nicotine. > Long as ya don’t light up a cancer stick it is "A" 110% OK to continue > the nicotine addiction for the rest of ones life. > So to me the comparisons is like comparing apples and kumquats. > Most addictions one has to stop ALL and or any type of ingesting said > drug. > Gwen

  Response:

  Agreed, from a rational and personal perspective. Thanks for your post. Carol <–saying me too OF + 5 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I got something I gotta get off my chest.  YMMV.  FWIW.  All the usual > disclaimers. > I personally believe that cigarette addiction is every bit as serious, life > threatening, life destroying, joy destroying, etc. etc. as heroin addiction, > cocaine addiction, alcoholism, or whatever.  I also believe one of the > reasons that cigarette addiction is relatively hard to beat is because we > DON’T take it as seriously, as quitters and as a society. > Here’s an analogy.  Let’s say we were all alcoholics instead of tobacco > addicts.  And let’s say one of our members came here to our quit-drinking > support group and said, "I suffer from chronic, severe depression, and I’ve > been sober x amount of time.  But if the depression gets too bad, I’ll > drink.  I’ll only stay sober if I can do it without being disabled by > depression." > What would we all do and say in respone, as members of this person’s support > group?  We would debate the issue, we would try to be supportive, we would > try to offer ALTERNATIVES to drinking.  We would try to help this person > prepare himself, arm himself with such alternatives.  We would try to > encourage this person to maintain, continue, and plan for meaningful, > effective treatment for his depression that does not involve reactivating > his addiction and threatening his health and life. > Why don’t we act the same way when somebody says, "If my depression gets too > bad, I’ll smoke"?  I think it’s because we forget that smoking is as serious > an addiction as drinking or any other addiction.  And I think that > negligence, that forgetfulness makes it harder to quit smoking, and harder > to support each others’ quits.  We don’t take it seriously enough.  And I > think some people here a lot of misconceptions about smoking being some sort > of "anti-depressant."  Smoking is an "anti-depressant" in the same sense > that crack cocaine is an "anti-depressant."  I hear that when you smoke > crack, you get happy.  Does that make it a rational response to depression; > a rational "treatment" for depression; a rational life choice; an > "anti-depressant"?  Only if you pervert the meaning of the word > "anti-depressant," IMO. > And what if the above-referenced alcoholic came to the above-referenced > quit-drinking group and said, "But alcohol is such an amazing > mood-stabilizer for me!  It really works!  Nothing else stabilizes my mood > as quickly and effectively as drinking!"  Would we just let that remark > pass?  THAT’S CRAZY!  I have never heard such a bunch of junkie-thinking > bullshit in my life!  Again, the rational response is to say, "That’s junkie > thinking," and try to be supportive, we would try to offer ALTERNATIVES to > drinking.  We would try to help this person prepare himself, arm himself > with such alternatives.  We would try to encourage this person to maintain, > continue, and plan for meaningful, effective treatment for his depression > that does not involve reactivating his addiction and threatening his health > and life. > And what if somebody said, "But smoking crack cocaine is such an amazing > mood stabilizer!"  "Shooting heroin really works for me — nothing else > stabilizes my mood as quickl and effectively as a big fat injection of > smack!" > We would NOT say, "Oh you’re such a special case and I can understand why > you say you may drink again one day."  Or smoke crack cocaine.  Or shoot > herion.  That’s bullshit.  It’s delusional.  It’s dangerous for this > particular addict and it’s dangerous for every addict reading this > newsgroup.  I personally feel such thinking should be challenged here.  I’m > not trying to belittle this particular depressed addict or criticize his > thinking, but I AM trying to warn other addicts away from that addict’s > slippery slope, that junkie thinking. > If it’s a choice between smoking and suicide, then smoke.  That’s a > no-brainer.  But it’s also an utterly false dichotomy.  The choice is NOT > between smoking and suicide.  The choices are between living and dying, and > between smoking and not smoking (and between drinking and not drinking, > etc.). > In my experience, if you set up any set of circumstances in which you are > willing to relapse, then you will relapse.  Sooner or later.  If you say, "I > won’t smoke unless x happens," then x will happen.  Because that’s how > addiction works.  An addict will subconsciously arrange her life so as to > ensure the occurrence of x, if she has decided that x is an excuse to > relapse. > So instead of setting yourself up that way, figure out what x is that would > tempt you to smoke and figure out how NOT to smoke if x happens.  Plan. > Prepare.  No more excuses. > ep  dof

  Response:

  > I haven’t read in here "I won’t smoke unless X happens", what I have > read is: "I quit, just for today", an especially healthy POV, IMNSHO.

  I’ve read both.  I agree with you that odat is "an especially healthy POV." In fact, it’s how I quit!  And it’s how I stay quit to this day!  :-D Odat is great.  "I won’t smoke unless . . . " is, IMHO, junkie thinking. ep  dof

  Response:

  Great Post, EP!, It’s the uninformed addict that thinks drinking, smoking, shooting, or snorting is their only problem. All of our addictions cover over our real problems. When we stop drinking, smoking, etc…, we get to take a sobering look at our lives. Maybe for the first time. It can be a shocking depressing experience. But IMO, you have to start with ‘OK, I don’t use that substance any more, now what?…… what am I going to do?…. Like you say, using the substance again can’t be an option. That just sets you up for failure. That’s enough out of me -G. OF > I got something I gotta get off my chest.  YMMV.  FWIW.  All the usual > disclaimers.

  Boy, you can get away with saying anything after disclaimers like that, huh? ) > <snipped all the greatness > > So instead of setting yourself up that way, figure out what x is that would > tempt you to smoke and figure out how NOT to smoke if x happens.  Plan. > Prepare.  No more excuses. > ep  dof

  – Proofread carefully to see if you any words out.

  Response:

  >Not with sex addicts

  This sex addiction business? How does one join up? bobf 1y+

  Response:

  You got this one right, Edna.  I always said if I saw a friend die as soon as he smoked a cigarette I’d be able to put them down a lot quicker!!!!  We often criticize ourselves and others re: starts/stops and buckling/knuckling down quitting smoking.  Quitting Smoking is a VERY SERIOUS business and sometimes newbies may think it appears to be an easy task.  You hear of people stating "I just put them down".  Well, for the majority of persons quitting smoking you don’t always "just put them down". No excuses.  Quit any way you possibly can. Carolina Two months, one week, 18 hours, 23 minutes and 49 seconds. 2002 cigarettes not smoked, saving $313.47. Life saved: 6 days, 22 hours, 50 minutes.

  Response:

  I really apologize if the following is a multiple post — I thought I posted it earlier but it appears to have disappeared in cyberspace, so I’m re-posting it.  As follows: —– Great post, GG!  Comments are inserted below.

  > I think this is where many of us will disagree strongly. > Especially those of us that have had more than one addiction.

  I agree that this is an issue to be questioned and examined and tested.  I don’t think that everyone with multiple addictions will agree with what is apparently your proposition, however — that smoking isn’t as "bad" as other addictions. > A person is not going to crash their car or lose their licence > for being under the influence of tobacco. Smokers don’t smoke > one too many cigarettes and go home to beat the shit out of the > wife and kids. Smoking doesn’t render a person unfit for work.

  All totally excellent points of comparison between smoking and drinking. Smoking is a lot more likely to make you sick and kill you at lower dosages, however — dosages where you are still fully functional, not wrecking cars, not making a fool of yourself otherwise, but you’re still dead. Which kills more?  Which causes more days of lost work?  More waste of life? Smoking or drinking?  I don’t know — I think these are relevant questions to ask when we are considering how serious smoking is as an addiction. > Whether or not smoking is as serious an *addiction* as > alcoholism isn’t really the point. Its the consequenses > of the behaviour itself that should determine whether one > behaviour is less or more harmful than another.

  I think that is very well said, and I would propose that, for the SMOKER, the most dangerous thing they could do is smoking.  Maybe the recovering cigarette addict who is in a life crisis or nearing breakdown would be better off going to the doc for some pills — and maybe those same pills would mean death for a person who is recovering from a previous addiction to THOSE pills.  Here, we’re recovering from cigarette addiction, and so SMOKING is not an option.  For most of us, Xanax, anti-depressants, therapy or maybe just a good stiff drink to get us through a shock ARE options, and they beat the hell out of smoking — for an ex-SMOKER. > What worries me more than any slippery slope is that people > with very real mental health problems come here and seek advice > and support about quitting because they want to make their lives > better. When they get here, will they be rubbished for their > negative thinking? Even though it may be depression talking, and > not just a person who likes to attract attention? Will they be > told that the most important thing is to not smoke, when no one > really gives a fuck if they smoke when they are a complete > basket case? Do we want to support people who want to quit, or > do we want to be the smoke police and bully others into quitting > and make them feel like 2nd class individuals if they slip or > need more help or suffer more.

  I think that every time somebody like me comes up here at as3 and tells somebody some simple home truths in language that is arguably too rough, there is going to be somebody else like you who comes along and balances the scales in an articulate and compassionate manner. Some of need a hug sometimes.  Some of us need a kick in the pants sometimes.  We will find both here on as3.  And I think there’s a big difference between somebody like me trying to make general statements about addiction (which are not directed at ANYBODY and who do not "rubbish" ANYBODY, and do not call ANYBODY any names and do insult ANYBODY), and somebody who name-calls, finger-points, and has temper tantrums.  I hope you can give me credit for not doing the latter, however much you may dislike my doing the former. > We all do what we can to get by.

  Absolutely! > When you are at breaking point, > something has to give. The choice is not suicide *or* smoking. > The situation is more one where waking up and living through > each day is itself an  unbearable struggle, and adding the extra > burden of a quit is more than can be withstood. A person who is > experiencing suicidal thoughts isn’t thinking the same way as > those who aren’t. They can’t think of long term costs and > benefits- they just want life to be less painful *now*. A choice > then has to be made as to what can be sacrificed in the short > term. The choice may well be between losing your mental health > (possibly permanently) or decreasing your physical health now > and possibly contracting a disease further down the track.

  That is very, very well said.  I could not agree more. > I don’t see a mental breakdown or a major bout of mental illness > as a *temptation* to smoke, nor as an *excuse*. One *can* quit > again- its hard, yes, but not as fucking hard as scraping up the > remanants of what was you after you slid over the brink.

  I’m with you so far, but – - – > *Nothing* is worth a mental breakdown. Certainly not a fucking > quit.

  IMO, you have set up a false dichotomy: you suggest that this is the choice one makes: between a quit and a breakdown.  In contrast, what I’m suggesting, is that we can see the falsity of this dichotomy now, while we are NOT on the brink of a breakdown.  In our calmer moments, our quit-building moments, we can prepare ourselves, plan, work on our attitudes, so we are better equipped in times of emotional crisis, so we WON’T fall into this false choice during the panic and fear of crisis, between poisoning ourselves with our old addiction on the one hand, and experiencing a traumatic breakdown on the other. And here’s a scenario based on my own personal experience of depression and failed quits in the past:  You are in a crisis.  You think smoking will help.  You smoke.  It doesn’t help.  You are too weakened by crisis to re-quit.  You get re-addicted.  You’ve lost your hard-won quit.  Your self-esteem plummets and you’re even more depressed. The fallacy inherent in the idea of "I’ll smoke if I get to depressed" is the fallacy that smoking will HELP.  It WON’T.  To suggest that it WILL helps is misleading and potentially dangerous, IMO.  It is more likely to HURT you.  All smoking will do is assuage the PANIC involved in deciding whether you’re going to relapse.  Then your self-esteem TANKS, and you have TWO problems instead of just depression.  It happens all the time on this ng.  People get depressed, relapse, stay depressed, re-quit.  It happens all the time.  This is unnecessary if we know to expect it and plan how to deal with it without smoking. > Anyone who can’t see that should thank their lucky stars that > experience hasn’t given them such insight and start supporting > and stop fucking judging the rest.

  Well I won’t be able to count my lucky stars on that one (having had several lengthy visits on the other side of the brink you so beautifully describe), but at least I’m not judging anybody  :-)  I’m just offering my belief, for what it’s worth, that if you say, "I will smoke if I get too depressed," is a very good way to set yourself up for a relapse, and that there’s no reason to think this way.  We can prepare ourselves for the bad times here and now by rooting out such junkie thinking and replacing it with realistic coping skills. GG, you seem to see some judgment on some *person* in my post.  If it’s there, I’m sorry.  All I was trying to "judge" — or "weigh," or evaluate, or critique — is *attitudes* that are helpful or unhelpful to staying quit, just like anybody else does here.  I think there are some people here who will tell you that I do not lack sympathy for a relapse.  In fact, my own attitude is that I am a puff away from a pack a day, and that the only reason I have not relapsed myself is that I have not experienced that particular juxtaposition of events that would end with a lit cigarette in my mouth.  Knowing I’m an addict, I’m not bloody likely to judge somebody else for being one.  So if you want to point your finger at me, feel free to do so for my having strong opinions and a big mouth, but I don’t think you can point your finger at me for passing judgment on anybody. ep  dof

  Response:

  > There is a BIG difference in your analogy here. With quitting smoking > it is STILL very acceptable to ingest NICOTINE, ie NRT’s. > Where as with any other type of addiction be it alcohol, herion, > cocaine, valium etc it is NOT acceptable to continue ingesting > said drug even if your prefered method is shooting up said drug > why not just start snorting it.

  You are incorrect.  In fact, replacement therapy IS an acceptable, proven, recommended way to treat MANY addictions. I happen to be close to a former street-narcotics addict.  He will take methadone for the rest of his life.  If he doesn’t, he will almost certainly go back to street drugs.  If he goes back to street drugs, he will be dead within two years.  Methadone is a narcotic, it is a "replacement therapy" for narcotics addiction.  It’s called "treatment."  NRT is also "treatment." It works.  It saves lives.  It’s not an "addiction" unless you pervert the word "addiction."  (As one of our as3 members’ doctors recently explained.) When barb addicts, benzo addicts, whatever addicts, go into a rehab, they are treated with REPLACEMENT therapies during withdrawal.  Back when I still knew something about this stuff, librium was replacement therapy of choice for someone withdrawing from alcohol.  It’s called TREATMENT.  It works.  It saves lives. > Why not just give all the "crack" heads snortable cocaine instead > while they are quitting their "crack" addiction.

  Bullshit.  You are the one making ridiculous (and dangerous) comparisons.  A person on NRT is not killing themselves with the poisons in cigarettes.  A person on NRT is recovering with the assistance of nicotine as a medication. I don’t know what the recommended treatment is for crack recovery, but I doubt it includes lethal substances like cocaine or cigarettes.  And I’m damn sure it includes medication. > <snip> all anyone here cares about it NOT smoking > and really no one has a problem with the "real" addiction of nicotine. > Long as ya don’t light up a cancer stick it is "A" 110% OK to continue > the nicotine addiction for the rest of ones life.

  That is precisely my attitude on the issue.  Bingo.  Well said.  :-)  Except that I object to the characterization of NRT use as an "addiction."  That is a dangerous perversion of the word, "addiction," IMHO.  Cigarettes will make you stink, cough, lie to yourself, waste your money, and die.  Cigarettes kill.  In contrast, nicotine replacement therapy SAVES LIVES. > So to me the comparisons is like comparing apples and kumquats.

  That’s because you have committed yourself to an irrational position and feel obliged to defend it regardless of its irrationality, for your own personal reasons, whatever they may be.  But I’m not going to sit here and pretend it is a valuable contribution to the cause of helping people quit smoking.  And that’s why this group is here.  To help people quit smoking. This group works.  So does NRT.  And IMHO, anti-NRT ignorance is counter-productive. > Most addictions one has to stop ALL and or any type of ingesting said > drug.

  Again, this is an assertion that is misleading at best and false in many cases.  Again, some former narcotics addicts stay on methadone FOR THEIR ENTIRE LIVES.  If they quit methadone they will DIE.  Methadone makes it possible for these FORMER addicts to lead productive lives, save money, hold down a job, regulate their narcotics intake, and abide by the law. If some people need to take NRT or DIE from smoking, then god bless NRT. NRT SAVES LIVES.  And far be it from me to judge such people.  Far be it from me to call them names, like "addict."  To call someone who is on NRT an "addict’ is, IMNSHO, meaningless, meanspirited, judgmental, narrow-minded, and counter-productive to the goal of quitting smoking.  It does nobody any good and is just another example of how passing negative judgments can hurt other people.  People who are trying to recover from a life-threatening addiction. Mind you, I think CT is a great way to go, too, for some people.  Some people get their minds in the zone and they are ready to quit CT and using NRT would just be a distraction from the zone their heads need to be in to stay addiction-free.  The Allen Carr method is a great example of this. Allen Carr’s method works.  So does NRT.  We all have to find our own way out of our own personal mazes.  And passing ill-informed judgments on other adults based on irrational prejudices about NRT and ignorant assumptions about addiction isn’t going to help anybody out of the maze, IMNSHO.  YMMV. ep  dof

  Response:

  Hi Edna, I appreciate your taking the time to articulate your feelings about this issue.  I’m only going to address one or two points: 1) I don’t know about chronic depression, and not being a medical professional I’m unwilling to offer advice or alternatives, other than: "see your health care provider".  This goes for alcoholics as well as smokers.  Call my "chicken" or "unfeeling" if you must but I did work at a medical facility for a while and I have some idea about the law of "unintended consequences". 2) I haven’t read in here "I won’t smoke unless X happens", what I have read is: "I quit, just for today", an especially healthy POV, IMNSHO. BTW, YMMV, FWIW, etc. back at you. regards, dave (lh) OF – and apparently cranky today

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I got something I gotta get off my chest.  YMMV.  FWIW.  All the usual > disclaimers. > I personally believe that cigarette addiction is every bit as serious, life > threatening, life destroying, joy destroying, etc. etc. as heroin addiction, > cocaine addiction, alcoholism, or whatever.  I also believe one of the > reasons that cigarette addiction is relatively hard to beat is because we > DON’T take it as seriously, as quitters and as a society. > Here’s an analogy.  Let’s say we were all alcoholics instead of tobacco > addicts.  And let’s say one of our members came here to our quit-drinking > support group and said, "I suffer from chronic, severe depression, and I’ve > been sober x amount of time.  But if the depression gets too bad, I’ll > drink.  I’ll only stay sober if I can do it without being disabled by > depression." > What would we all do and say in respone, as members of this person’s support > group?  We would debate the issue, we would try to be supportive, we would > try to offer ALTERNATIVES to drinking.  We would try to help this person > prepare himself, arm himself with such alternatives.  We would try to > encourage this person to maintain, continue, and plan for meaningful, > effective treatment for his depression that does not involve reactivating > his addiction and threatening his health and life. > Why don’t we act the same way when somebody says, "If my depression gets too > bad, I’ll smoke"?  I think it’s because we forget that smoking is as serious > an addiction as drinking or any other addiction.  And I think that > negligence, that forgetfulness makes it harder to quit smoking, and harder > to support each others’ quits.  We don’t take it seriously enough.  And I > think some people here a lot of misconceptions about smoking being some sort > of "anti-depressant."  Smoking is an "anti-depressant" in the same sense > that crack cocaine is an "anti-depressant."  I hear that when you smoke > crack, you get happy.  Does that make it a rational response to depression; > a rational "treatment" for depression; a rational life choice; an > "anti-depressant"?  Only if you pervert the meaning of the word > "anti-depressant," IMO. > And what if the above-referenced alcoholic came to the above-referenced > quit-drinking group and said, "But alcohol is such an amazing > mood-stabilizer for me!  It really works!  Nothing else stabilizes my mood > as quickly and effectively as drinking!"  Would we just let that remark > pass?  THAT’S CRAZY!  I have never heard such a bunch of junkie-thinking > bullshit in my life!  Again, the rational response is to say, "That’s junkie > thinking," and try to be supportive, we would try to offer ALTERNATIVES to > drinking.  We would try to help this person prepare himself, arm himself > with such alternatives.  We would try to encourage this person to maintain, > continue, and plan for meaningful, effective treatment for his depression > that does not involve reactivating his addiction and threatening his health > and life. > And what if somebody said, "But smoking crack cocaine is such an amazing > mood stabilizer!"  "Shooting heroin really works for me — nothing else > stabilizes my mood as quickl and effectively as a big fat injection of > smack!" > We would NOT say, "Oh you’re such a special case and I can understand why > you say you may drink again one day."  Or smoke crack cocaine.  Or shoot > herion.  That’s bullshit.  It’s delusional.  It’s dangerous for this > particular addict and it’s dangerous for every addict reading this > newsgroup.  I personally feel such thinking should be challenged here. I’m > not trying to belittle this particular depressed addict or criticize his > thinking, but I AM trying to warn other addicts away from that addict’s > slippery slope, that junkie thinking. > If it’s a choice between smoking and suicide, then smoke.  That’s a > no-brainer.  But it’s also an utterly false dichotomy.  The choice is NOT > between smoking and suicide.  The choices are between living and dying, and > between smoking and not smoking (and between drinking and not drinking, > etc.). > In my experience, if you set up any set of circumstances in which you are > willing to relapse, then you will relapse.  Sooner or later.  If you say, "I > won’t smoke unless x happens," then x will happen.  Because that’s how > addiction works.  An addict will subconsciously arrange her life so as to > ensure the occurrence of x, if she has decided that x is an excuse to > relapse. > So instead of setting yourself up that way, figure out what x is that would > tempt you to smoke and figure out how NOT to smoke if x happens.  Plan. > Prepare.  No more excuses. > ep  dof

  Response:

  Not with food addictions Not with sex addicts Chris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I got something I gotta get off my chest.  YMMV.  FWIW.  All the usual > disclaimers. >There is a BIG difference in your analogy here. With quitting smoking >it is STILL very acceptable to ingest NICOTINE, ie NRT’s. >Where as with any other type of addiction be it alcohol, herion, >cocaine, valium etc it is NOT acceptable to continue ingesting >said drug even if your prefered method is shooting up said drug >why not just start snorting it. >I think there in lies some of the reason it  is so lack as it is tolerated >and or allowable means to quit smoking while continuing to get >your "fix" with said drug, ie nicotine. Therefore it makes sense >to me why people feel the way they do or can feel the way the do. >Why not just give all the "crack" heads snortable cocaine instead >while they are quitting their "crack" addiction. >But I know no one will see the dynamics of this and it will turn >into all out flame since all anyone here cares about it NOT smoking >and really no one has a problem with the "real" addiction of nicotine. >Long as ya don’t light up a cancer stick it is "A" 110% OK to continue >the nicotine addiction for the rest of ones life. >So to me the comparisons is like comparing apples and kumquats. >Most addictions one has to stop ALL and or any type of ingesting said >drug. >Gwen

  Response:

  > I got something I gotta get off my chest.  YMMV.  FWIW.  All the usual > disclaimers.

  There is a BIG difference in your analogy here. With quitting smoking it is STILL very acceptable to ingest NICOTINE, ie NRT’s. Where as with any other type of addiction be it alcohol, herion, cocaine, valium etc it is NOT acceptable to continue ingesting said drug even if your prefered method is shooting up said drug why not just start snorting it. I think there in lies some of the reason it  is so lack as it is tolerated and or allowable means to quit smoking while continuing to get your "fix" with said drug, ie nicotine. Therefore it makes sense to me why people feel the way they do or can feel the way the do. Why not just give all the "crack" heads snortable cocaine instead while they are quitting their "crack" addiction. But I know no one will see the dynamics of this and it will turn into all out flame since all anyone here cares about it NOT smoking and really no one has a problem with the "real" addiction of nicotine. Long as ya don’t light up a cancer stick it is "A" 110% OK to continue the nicotine addiction for the rest of ones life. So to me the comparisons is like comparing apples and kumquats. Most addictions one has to stop ALL and or any type of ingesting said drug. Gwen

  Response:

  I got something I gotta get off my chest.  YMMV.  FWIW.  All the usual disclaimers. I personally believe that cigarette addiction is every bit as serious, life threatening, life destroying, joy destroying, etc. etc. as heroin addiction, cocaine addiction, alcoholism, or whatever.  I also believe one of the reasons that cigarette addiction is relatively hard to beat is because we DON’T take it as seriously, as quitters and as a society. Here’s an analogy.  Let’s say we were all alcoholics instead of tobacco addicts.  And let’s say one of our members came here to our quit-drinking support group and said, "I suffer from chronic, severe depression, and I’ve been sober x amount of time.  But if the depression gets too bad, I’ll drink.  I’ll only stay sober if I can do it without being disabled by depression." What would we all do and say in respone, as members of this person’s support group?  We would debate the issue, we would try to be supportive, we would try to offer ALTERNATIVES to drinking.  We would try to help this person prepare himself, arm himself with such alternatives.  We would try to encourage this person to maintain, continue, and plan for meaningful, effective treatment for his depression that does not involve reactivating his addiction and threatening his health and life. Why don’t we act the same way when somebody says, "If my depression gets too bad, I’ll smoke"?  I think it’s because we forget that smoking is as serious an addiction as drinking or any other addiction.  And I think that negligence, that forgetfulness makes it harder to quit smoking, and harder to support each others’ quits.  We don’t take it seriously enough.  And I think some people here a lot of misconceptions about smoking being some sort of "anti-depressant."  Smoking is an "anti-depressant" in the same sense that crack cocaine is an "anti-depressant."  I hear that when you smoke crack, you get happy.  Does that make it a rational response to depression; a rational "treatment" for depression; a rational life choice; an "anti-depressant"?  Only if you pervert the meaning of the word "anti-depressant," IMO. And what if the above-referenced alcoholic came to the above-referenced quit-drinking group and said, "But alcohol is such an amazing mood-stabilizer for me!  It really works!  Nothing else stabilizes my mood as quickly and effectively as drinking!"  Would we just let that remark pass?  THAT’S CRAZY!  I have never heard such a bunch of junkie-thinking bullshit in my life!  Again, the rational response is to say, "That’s junkie thinking," and try to be supportive, we would try to offer ALTERNATIVES to drinking.  We would try to help this person prepare himself, arm himself with such alternatives.  We would try to encourage this person to maintain, continue, and plan for meaningful, effective treatment for his depression that does not involve reactivating his addiction and threatening his health and life. And what if somebody said, "But smoking crack cocaine is such an amazing mood stabilizer!"  "Shooting heroin really works for me — nothing else stabilizes my mood as quickl and effectively as a big fat injection of smack!" We would NOT say, "Oh you’re such a special case and I can understand why you say you may drink again one day."  Or smoke crack cocaine.  Or shoot herion.  That’s bullshit.  It’s delusional.  It’s dangerous for this particular addict and it’s dangerous for every addict reading this newsgroup.  I personally feel such thinking should be challenged here.  I’m not trying to belittle this particular depressed addict or criticize his thinking, but I AM trying to warn other addicts away from that addict’s slippery slope, that junkie thinking. If it’s a choice between smoking and suicide, then smoke.  That’s a no-brainer.  But it’s also an utterly false dichotomy.  The choice is NOT between smoking and suicide.  The choices are between living and dying, and between smoking and not smoking (and between drinking and not drinking, etc.). In my experience, if you set up any set of circumstances in which you are willing to relapse, then you will relapse.  Sooner or later.  If you say, "I won’t smoke unless x happens," then x will happen.  Because that’s how addiction works.  An addict will subconsciously arrange her life so as to ensure the occurrence of x, if she has decided that x is an excuse to relapse. So instead of setting yourself up that way, figure out what x is that would tempt you to smoke and figure out how NOT to smoke if x happens.  Plan. Prepare.  No more excuses. ep  dof

  Response:

  No comments Recover from Depression
  
  

• Success rates of quit smoking programs?

  Question:

  >Every second, 13 boxes of Jell-O brand gelatin >are being sold in the U.S.

  I quit Jell-O long before I quit smoking.  Sorry, Nick, no statistics.  But I did go through the Cancer Society’s quit-smoking program twice and it didn’t do me a bit of good. The only thing that worked for me was AS3. Joyce VOF (4 years 2 months 4 weeks)

  Response:

  I just got me one of them don’t smoke pamphlets and it stated that in 10 years my cancer statistics would return to normal. ‘boy,’ I said to myself, ’smoking must be very unhealthy if it takes your body 10 years to recover.’ that’s even longer then it takes your body to recover from death. Stan.

  Response:

  Agree totally Joyce.  Just knowing I would have to announce a slip to AS3 was enough for me.  I was too damned stubborn to make such an announcement and too damned stubborn to slink away tail between my legs.  That left only 1 choice for me once I found AS3 (about 10 days quit).  That choice was simply to stay quit no ifs ands or butts.  And as my meter shows I still follow the same path. Ian OOF — 7y 2w 1d 2:03 smoke-free, 87,451 cigs not smoked, $10,743.36 saved, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Every second, 13 boxes of Jell-O brand gelatin >are being sold in the U.S. >I quit Jell-O long before I quit smoking.  Sorry, Nick, no statistics.  But I >did go through the Cancer Society’s quit-smoking program twice and it didn’t >do >me a bit of good. >The only thing that worked for me was AS3. >Joyce VOF (4 years 2 months 4 weeks)

  Response:

  I don’t know, but I’m betting their success rate is similar to that of unassisted quitters – unless they’ve changed their program in the last few years.  I participated in an American Lung Association quit smoking program about 7 years ago, and it was a joke.  We met weekly for 6 weeks.  4 before the quit date, one on the quit date and 1 after.  I dutifully made lists of reasons to quit, and listened to motivational stuff, and put stickers on my calendar, and monitored my smoking so I would know when I smoked the most… Nobody ever bothered to mention quit depression, or how long it would take my body to recover, or what I would experience when I quit or how long it would last.  I don’t think the person teaching the class was ever a smoker. She had no clue about what was going to happen to us.  There was no follow up. They just cut us loose with a "congratulations" party at a pizza place and a sticker saying that we had quit smoking.  Nobody ever called to see if I was still quit a month later (I wasn’t).   It left me with a serious feeling that I could never quit smoking.  I mean, I did everything they told me to, and I failed. These were the "experts" in quitting smoking, right?  They never told me that I probably would fail, that most people who quit fail the first time – but succeed eventually if they keep trying.  They never told me about quit depression, much less letting me know that it can be treated, and generally passes without treatment in a month or so.  I don’t really think that the people who put the program together knew anything about quitting smoking. They wanted me to put a rubber band on my wrist to snap when I had a craving!   I didn’t try to quit again for several years, and then only because the pharmaceutical companies had come out with a new quitting technique (the patch) that I hoped might help. I quit for about 12 weeks on that program, which was more encouraging than the class, and at least left me with some hope I could quit again. Just my experience. YMMV. Diane M.     – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Dear All: > I’m trying to gather information on the success rates of various > smoking cessation programs. I’ve checked, with modest success, the > American Lung Asociation, American Heart Association and National > Cancer Institute. > If you have such information or know of any web sites, research > studies or any sources that has such statistics, please post. I would > greatly appreciate your help. > Thanks, > Nick

  Response:

  Dear All: I’m trying to gather information on the success rates of various smoking cessation programs. I’ve checked, with modest success, the American Lung Asociation, American Heart Association and National Cancer Institute. If you have such information or know of any web sites, research studies or any sources that has such statistics, please post. I would greatly appreciate your help. Thanks, Nick

  Response:

  I stopped smoking. I still don’t smoke. You’re welcome > Dear All: > I’m trying to gather information on the success rates of various > smoking cessation programs. I’ve checked, with modest success, the > American Lung Asociation, American Heart Association and National > Cancer Institute. > If you have such information or know of any web sites, research > studies or any sources that has such statistics, please post. I would > greatly appreciate your help. > Thanks, > Nick

  – Every second, 13 boxes of Jell-O brand gelatin are being sold in the U.S.

  Response:

  No comments Recover from Depression
  
  

• My heart goes out the the UK and the world

  Question:

  Sorry to hear you’re having such a difficult time, Janet…..take care.. Sally

  Response:

  Hope you have success getting better soon Janet. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Dear friends in Britain, >I wanted to come here and express my greatest sorrow at the loss of >George Harrison. He was loved by the world, and a priceless artisan to >evolve from the UK. He will be sorely missed. His contribution to >humanity in the form of his music will never be forgotten. >I also wanted to thank the citizens and Government and Monarchy of >Britain for being such good, close comrades in the war on terror. I >think we cannot find a better friend than Britain. Together, along >with the world coalition against terror, all of us are making a >difference. >I wish everyone a safe holiday season. I hope to come back one day, >but have nothing to contribute now as I started smoking after 13 >months smober and continue to do so. I have met some wonderful friends >here, like Goddess Xena, Gwen, Mavis, and the ever beloved, Miss >Maggie, Greg Groth, John Van Gurp, and many more. The depression is >bad, and I let my guard down and struggled to regain my smober >composure, but lost. My will to smoke must have been stronger than the >will to recover. That is all I can fathom of it. I am very proud of >all of you who have managed to stay smober, or who slipped and stopped >immediately. I am in the struggle of my life here. It saddens me to >think that I have been battling addiction to the cigarette all of my >life. It is probably what will kill me one day regardless of if I quit >now. I have just smoked for way too long. >God bless all of you. For some reason I have this sense of doom, like >a nuke is going to wipe out America, so I wanted to post this just in >case we really do get exterminated. I hope it is just my cognitive >impairment that I am fighting so fiercly with that is making me feel >this way. I am seeing a counsellor and she is sending me to a >psychiatrist to re-evaluate my medication. It appears my memory is >getting worse, and so is my ability to verbally express myself. I can >read and communicate in writing, but when I speak it is a struggle to >gather my thoughts. I think this medication is clogging my brain or >something. I don’t know. >Love you always, >Janet

  Response:

  > Dear friends in Britain,

  Indeed. I am devastated by this news today. Thanks Janet for dropping in and giving this tribute to GH. What a wonderful artist and human he was. Men like him are the few that give me hope for humanity. BTW, great to see you drop by. Gwen

  Response:

  Damn Janet, I’m so sorry to read that you’re having a tough time with depression. Don’t forget to take everything one day at a time – otherwise it *does* feel like we’re about to be exterminated.  Your dismay is the depression talking – it is *never* too late to stop smoking.  You’ll do it again when you’re ready.  I know you will! I will always be here for you! Battle On, Janet! -GoddessXena Smober. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Dear friends in Britain, > I wanted to come here and express my greatest sorrow at the loss of > George Harrison. He was loved by the world, and a priceless artisan to > evolve from the UK. He will be sorely missed. His contribution to > humanity in the form of his music will never be forgotten. > I also wanted to thank the citizens and Government and Monarchy of > Britain for being such good, close comrades in the war on terror. I > think we cannot find a better friend than Britain. Together, along > with the world coalition against terror, all of us are making a > difference. > I wish everyone a safe holiday season. I hope to come back one day, > but have nothing to contribute now as I started smoking after 13 > months smober and continue to do so. I have met some wonderful friends > here, like Goddess Xena, Gwen, Mavis, and the ever beloved, Miss > Maggie, Greg Groth, John Van Gurp, and many more. The depression is > bad, and I let my guard down and struggled to regain my smober > composure, but lost. My will to smoke must have been stronger than the > will to recover. That is all I can fathom of it. I am very proud of > all of you who have managed to stay smober, or who slipped and stopped > immediately. I am in the struggle of my life here. It saddens me to > think that I have been battling addiction to the cigarette all of my > life. It is probably what will kill me one day regardless of if I quit > now. I have just smoked for way too long. > God bless all of you. For some reason I have this sense of doom, like > a nuke is going to wipe out America, so I wanted to post this just in > case we really do get exterminated. I hope it is just my cognitive > impairment that I am fighting so fiercly with that is making me feel > this way. I am seeing a counsellor and she is sending me to a > psychiatrist to re-evaluate my medication. It appears my memory is > getting worse, and so is my ability to verbally express myself. I can > read and communicate in writing, but when I speak it is a struggle to > gather my thoughts. I think this medication is clogging my brain or > something. I don’t know. > Love you always, > Janet

  Response:

  "Thank-you George, it was grand knowing you."  - Yoko Ono Damn. Greg Groth

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dear friends in Britain, > I wanted to come here and express my greatest sorrow at the loss of > George Harrison. He was loved by the world, and a priceless artisan to > evolve from the UK. He will be sorely missed. His contribution to > humanity in the form of his music will never be forgotten. > I also wanted to thank the citizens and Government and Monarchy of > Britain for being such good, close comrades in the war on terror. I > think we cannot find a better friend than Britain. Together, along > with the world coalition against terror, all of us are making a > difference. > I wish everyone a safe holiday season. I hope to come back one day, > but have nothing to contribute now as I started smoking after 13 > months smober and continue to do so. I have met some wonderful friends > here, like Goddess Xena, Gwen, Mavis, and the ever beloved, Miss > Maggie, Greg Groth, John Van Gurp, and many more. The depression is > bad, and I let my guard down and struggled to regain my smober > composure, but lost. My will to smoke must have been stronger than the > will to recover. That is all I can fathom of it. I am very proud of > all of you who have managed to stay smober, or who slipped and stopped > immediately. I am in the struggle of my life here. It saddens me to > think that I have been battling addiction to the cigarette all of my > life. It is probably what will kill me one day regardless of if I quit > now. I have just smoked for way too long. > God bless all of you. For some reason I have this sense of doom, like > a nuke is going to wipe out America, so I wanted to post this just in > case we really do get exterminated. I hope it is just my cognitive > impairment that I am fighting so fiercly with that is making me feel > this way. I am seeing a counsellor and she is sending me to a > psychiatrist to re-evaluate my medication. It appears my memory is > getting worse, and so is my ability to verbally express myself. I can > read and communicate in writing, but when I speak it is a struggle to > gather my thoughts. I think this medication is clogging my brain or > something. I don’t know. > Love you always, > Janet

  Response:

  Dear friends in Britain, I wanted to come here and express my greatest sorrow at the loss of George Harrison. He was loved by the world, and a priceless artisan to evolve from the UK. He will be sorely missed. His contribution to humanity in the form of his music will never be forgotten. I also wanted to thank the citizens and Government and Monarchy of Britain for being such good, close comrades in the war on terror. I think we cannot find a better friend than Britain. Together, along with the world coalition against terror, all of us are making a difference. I wish everyone a safe holiday season. I hope to come back one day, but have nothing to contribute now as I started smoking after 13 months smober and continue to do so. I have met some wonderful friends here, like Goddess Xena, Gwen, Mavis, and the ever beloved, Miss Maggie, Greg Groth, John Van Gurp, and many more. The depression is bad, and I let my guard down and struggled to regain my smober composure, but lost. My will to smoke must have been stronger than the will to recover. That is all I can fathom of it. I am very proud of all of you who have managed to stay smober, or who slipped and stopped immediately. I am in the struggle of my life here. It saddens me to think that I have been battling addiction to the cigarette all of my life. It is probably what will kill me one day regardless of if I quit now. I have just smoked for way too long. God bless all of you. For some reason I have this sense of doom, like a nuke is going to wipe out America, so I wanted to post this just in case we really do get exterminated. I hope it is just my cognitive impairment that I am fighting so fiercly with that is making me feel this way. I am seeing a counsellor and she is sending me to a psychiatrist to re-evaluate my medication. It appears my memory is getting worse, and so is my ability to verbally express myself. I can read and communicate in writing, but when I speak it is a struggle to gather my thoughts. I think this medication is clogging my brain or something. I don’t know. Love you always, Janet

  Response:

  No comments Recover from Depression
  
  

• The plight of Israel's Arab community

  Question:

  Too long to read; and nothing new. The palest ink is better than the best memory.     –Chinese proverb There is no end to collecting books.    –Book of Ecclesiastes  To three possessions shalt thou look: Acquire a field, a friend, a book.    –Samuel haNagid, Vizier to the King of Granada

  Response:

  Precisely one year ago today, Israel’s Arab citizens took to the streets to express solidarity with their brothers and sisters in the territories and to voice their sentiments that the Israeli establishment and the country’s Jewish majority discriminate against the Israeli Arab community, neglect its needs and totally ignore its distress. The reaction of the Israel Police to the violent disturbances was harsh and sent shockwaves through the entire community. When the Israeli Arab sector began to recover from these shockwaves – some of the consequences of which can still be felt within the community – the country’s Arab citizens also began to nurture hopes and expectations that their "awakening" (a term used by many of them) would set off a few alarm bells and would make both the Israeli establishment and Israeli Jewish society realize just how long the problems of the country’s Arab community have been neglected. This was not just an example of "pie-in-the-sky" thinking; there seemed to be sufficient evidence around to support such optimism. In fact, immediately after the October 2000 riots, a certain change could be seen in the nature of the public political-social debate in Israel: a number of "dialogue booths" were set up; senior politicians, even those who belong to the right-wing camp, began to speak of a need for equal rights for Israel’s Arab citizens; an independent commission of inquiry, the Or Commission, was set up to investigate the disturbances; then prime minister Ehud Barak (even if he was partially motivated by the upcoming elections) publicly apologized to the Israeli Arab community; and the government approved a multi-year development program for the Arab sector. Hopes grew when prime minister-elect Ariel Sharon held a meeting with the leaders of the Israeli Arab community shortly after his victory at the polls. At the meeting, Sharon made some very impressive promises. It suddenly appeared that in the world of Israeli politics, which is so riddled with contradictions and ironic situations, Sharon, of all people, who had always been considered by Israeli Arabs to be the epitome of Zionism’s injustices toward them, would undertake a bold initiative to better the lot of Israel’s Arab citizens. Today, one year after the October disturbances, it is clear that all those hopes have been dashed on the rocks. From nearly every possible standpoint – political and economic, as well as from the standpoints of leadership and morale – the distress of the Israeli Arab community is more intense than it was on the eve of the community’s "awakening." While the state has adopted a tougher stance vis-a-vis the Arab residents of the territories, there has been a serious deterioration in the relationship between the Israeli establishment and the Arab community within the Green Line. In Sharon’s cabinet, key positions – as far as issues pertaining to the Arab sector are concerned – are held by ministers such as Avigdor Lieberman (National Infrastructure), Limor Livnat (Education) and Uzi Landau (Public Security). All three of these cabinet ministers have a track record of vicious verbal attacks on Israel’s Arab minority. The four-year development program for individual Israeli Arab communities will not be implemented this year either. The ministries headed by Lieberman and Landau are making preparations for launching a comprehensive campaign of law enforcement – during the course of which illegally-built structures will be destroyed – and there will be no set of liberally-oriented planning reforms for Israel’s Arab communities. Moshe Shochat, a Jewish official in charge of the education system for Israel’s Arab citizens in the southern part of the country, has come out with some serious racist statements concerning the very community he is supposed to be serving; however, he has not been forced to hand in his letter of resignation. The collective mood of depression that exists among Israeli Arabs is exacerbated by the attitudes of the country’s Jewish majority. The nationalist right, which is growing stronger on a daily basis, is inspiring feelings of fear among Israeli Arabs, making them apprehensive about stepping outside their respective communities and strongly discouraging them from protesting both their own situation and the events in the territories. The Israeli left, the traditional ally of the country’s Arab minority, has proved that it cannot be counted on for any substantial support. The only positive development to emerge over the past year – from the standpoint of Israeli Arabs – is the growth of their collective sense of identity as a national minority that has legitimate group rights and has begun to harness its inner energies in a struggle to have these rights recognized. The cries of distress emanating from the Israeli Arab community are, however, being drowned out by the sounds of bombs going off – sounds that have become a permanent and dominant element in the Israeli "resonance box." As a result, the problems of Israel’s Arab citizens are being pushed to the bottom of the national agenda. At one of the sessions of the Or Commission that took place about two weeks ago, testimony was given by Brigadier General Reuven Levy of the Israel Police who, for the past 25 years, has served Israel’s defense establishment as an expert on Arab affairs and who, for the last decade, has been a consultant on Arab affairs to Israel’s police commissioner. "The state is making grave strategic errors," Levy told the commission, with emotion coloring the tone of his voice. "A problem of such magnitude cannot simply be swept under the carpet. These are our brothers and sisters. It must be clearly understood that we must live together with them and that they must live together with us in peaceful coexistence. "These are citizens who have proved their loyalty to the state over the past 53 years. None of us should be surprised by the fact that when a conflict of this nature is not dealt with effectively, it naturally intensifies and eventually explodes in our faces." Levy’s emotional assertion was highlighted in a newspaper headline, quoted on the radio and then disappeared from the public’s awareness. Published in Haaretz (Israeli dayly newspapar ORI NIR) Typical example of free and democratic press in Israel where everybody is allowed to cry, shout and write his dissident opinions. Carlos // free anonymous email || forums \ subZINE || anonymous browsing \             subDIMENSION — http://www.subdimension.com

  Response:

  No comments Recover from Depression
  
  

• When drugs for depression dont work for me whats left?

  Question:

  Hawkeye, I am not sure what to say. My inclination is for comfort, but even that I feel I would far short of. I am sorry to hear you have been going through all this for years. How hard it must be. My one thing I do have to say is you DO HAVE FRIENDS here. You can write me anytime. Not that I could give you some profound insight but I am always willing to be shoulder as well as ear. As far as this up and coming treatment. I would opt for that in a heartbeat over these guinea pigs meds that are distributed to every Tom, Dick and Harry that walks the street like it is candy. I would much prefer a quick hit and no meds to hurt my other internal vital organs. But then I have epilepsy and ECT is very similar to my grand mal seizures. Yes I have confusion for hours afterwards. I am sure the grand mal seizures are partly responsible for my inability to spell now. At one time I was fairly good at spelling. Hawkeye I will be thinking of you and sending you positive vibs. I hope this procedure turns out to be the formula you have needed all along. One that will make you smile, one that will make you at peace. Hugs, BIG HUGE HUGS, Gwen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Friends. I have put up a good front. More on this group than at work. At > work people have noticed I havent talked much. I seem kinda down and > silent. Not really smiling much. Laugh a little at a few funny things > but keeping to myself. Seemingly frustrated and short tempered at times. > Anyway. Thanks for listening. And no I wont just disappear. You all aint > that lucky. > OFf somewhere waiting to be shocked and not smoking at the same time.

  Response:

      Do you have a way of getting a second opinion on ECT before doing it? I don’t know how you feel except as you described, obviously, but ECT seems extreme if you’re still functioning, able to work and so on.     Some doctors put their patients on several different drugs at once and I think that masks any improvement they might get from just one.  It’s as though they think "more is more" but many people end up more confused than they were when they started.     I’ve been on many different medications too.  The current one I’ve been on for at least six years now – before that I was on 4 or 5 different antidepressants that would work (some of them) for a while and then stop, or not work at all.  My body chemistry probably changed over that period which would affect how they worked or didn’t work.     I should add that it’s been my experience that drugs alone didn’t fix everything.  They helped me see things more clearly, allowed me to be able to look at things in my life in a different light, but they weren’t a "fix" by any means.  At this point now it’s been so long that I can tell when something isn’t right, or if it’s just a normal reaction (sad, angry, tense) to living.  Good psychotherapy can make a world of difference, but you have to be ready for it, and ready to work and face upleasant things and be honest.     I just wanted to tell you that because, though I’m sure I don’t have the whole picture, it does sometimes take time to recover.     Wishing you all the best,         LizB

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Friends. I have put up a good front. More on this group than at work. At > work people have noticed I havent talked much. I seem kinda down and > silent. Not really smiling much. Laugh a little at a few funny things > but keeping to myself. Seemingly frustrated and short tempered at times. > I get around my family and do my business and then just wanting to get > home and get in my little cocoon. Just keep to myself. Tired all the > time even after a decent nights sleep. I am not suicidal nor do I wish > to end my life. > As some of you know I have been in treatment for depression for a few > years now. I have been on so many different meds that I shouldve bought > stock in a drug company I would be rich. > So lately I have been down in the dumps again. I went to my doc this > afternoon telling him how I have been feeling. Meds just dont seem to be > working. Tired and all. He then suggested ECT. In other words shock > therapy. > Not like you see in the movies though. They sedate you and then buzz > you. You wake up and then whatever. A chance of memory loss but with > time stuff should come back come back. I aint scared or anything. I just > dont want to lose the precious memorys I have of my nephews and family. > All the rest I can lose and could care less. > When the electricty hits the brain it makes the brain release the > chemicals which are lacking and its more natural I guess. Which also > means I may not need to take the 5 different meds I now take. Then I > will live happily ever after. Right? > Quite frankly I am so sick of everything. I have been fighting this > battle for so long. At times I have no strength left. Then I try a new > drug and things look up for a while then its effectivness wears off and > I am back where I am now. A never ending cycle. I am tired. So once > again I am to the point where I will try anything. Including having > electricty be released straight into my brain? Sure why not. Screw it. I > aint having much fun as it is right now. > I am set up to have a physical thursday afternoon. The toughest part of > that is I have to fast before hand. That truly sucks. I cant remember > the last time I went 8 waking hours without eating. Heh heh. He wants to > start this on monday. So if you dont see or hear from me I probably > forgot about all of you. Yeah right. > I honestly dont know whats going to happen. I have my dad who will take > me to and from these appointments. Confusion right afterwards is common. > Hell maybe I will forget I smoked at one time and then I wont have those > pangs of feeling like smoking. > Damn. I dont know what to think. I know it will all be ok. In the end > everything will work out. I am a survivor and I aint gonna let a little > thing like my brain keep me from living. > Well I guess atleast through the toughest times I have my sense of > humor. I remember when my grandfather past away it was the visitation > the night before. I was going around trying to get everyone to smile. No > disrespect was intended towards him. I even got my mom and aunt to laugh > a little. I couldnt bring myself to cry. After the funeral was over and > everyone left is when I cried. > Even now when I face this I try to crack jokes and think of something to > lighten things up. I guess I try and not take life to seriously > afterall. Thats what I believe. You cant take life to seriously. Now I > know life is precious and all that and in the aftermath of the WTC, > pentagon, and PA. atrocitys I dont mean to sound like I am making light > of that. But for me personally. > There you have it. Why am I burdening you all with this? Outside of my > family I have one true friend I trust. After I got home I told him. I > dont have alot of friends in my life. I guess I am just not that > outgoing and all. I have always been a home body and I dont like going > out on the town. I dunno why. > But outside of that I dont have to many people to talk to to sort things > out in my head. After I talked to Tim it helped me kinda get things > right. And after unloading this post and typing things out its helps a > little too. > Like I said I aint worried at all about this. Life always goes on. And > it always will. Now what about this whole thing I have just talked about > is suppose to help others? Maybe this. > Going out and getting a pack of smokes because of this hasnt even been > an option. Hell I could even play the little trick of having "just one" > right before and then getting shocked. What the hell I probably wont > remember it so whats the problem. Right? No withdrawl and all. > Yep. Like I have said before and I will say it again. There is > absolutely no reason or excuse good enough to smoke. None whatsoever. > Nadda. Zero. Zilch. > Anyway. Thanks for listening. And no I wont just disappear. You all aint > that lucky. > OFf somewhere waiting to be shocked and not smoking at the same time.

  Response:

  Brother Hawk, You have been a friend and inspiration to me.  Every time I give Tony, our mailman, a wave I think of you too.  I am confident that better days are ahead for you, cause you are a true fighter and a true lover. Sending a shower of blessings your way. peace, mark

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Friends. I have put up a good front. More on this group than at work. At > work people have noticed I havent talked much. I seem kinda down and > silent. Not really smiling much. Laugh a little at a few funny things > but keeping to myself. Seemingly frustrated and short tempered at times. > I get around my family and do my business and then just wanting to get > home and get in my little cocoon. Just keep to myself. Tired all the > time even after a decent nights sleep. I am not suicidal nor do I wish > to end my life. > As some of you know I have been in treatment for depression for a few > years now. I have been on so many different meds that I shouldve bought > stock in a drug company I would be rich. > So lately I have been down in the dumps again. I went to my doc this > afternoon telling him how I have been feeling. Meds just dont seem to be > working. Tired and all. He then suggested ECT. In other words shock > therapy. > Not like you see in the movies though. They sedate you and then buzz > you. You wake up and then whatever. A chance of memory loss but with > time stuff should come back come back. I aint scared or anything. I just > dont want to lose the precious memorys I have of my nephews and family. > All the rest I can lose and could care less. > When the electricty hits the brain it makes the brain release the > chemicals which are lacking and its more natural I guess. Which also > means I may not need to take the 5 different meds I now take. Then I > will live happily ever after. Right? > Quite frankly I am so sick of everything. I have been fighting this > battle for so long. At times I have no strength left. Then I try a new > drug and things look up for a while then its effectivness wears off and > I am back where I am now. A never ending cycle. I am tired. So once > again I am to the point where I will try anything. Including having > electricty be released straight into my brain? Sure why not. Screw it. I > aint having much fun as it is right now. > I am set up to have a physical thursday afternoon. The toughest part of > that is I have to fast before hand. That truly sucks. I cant remember > the last time I went 8 waking hours without eating. Heh heh. He wants to > start this on monday. So if you dont see or hear from me I probably > forgot about all of you. Yeah right. > I honestly dont know whats going to happen. I have my dad who will take > me to and from these appointments. Confusion right afterwards is common. > Hell maybe I will forget I smoked at one time and then I wont have those > pangs of feeling like smoking. > Damn. I dont know what to think. I know it will all be ok. In the end > everything will work out. I am a survivor and I aint gonna let a little > thing like my brain keep me from living. > Well I guess atleast through the toughest times I have my sense of > humor. I remember when my grandfather past away it was the visitation > the night before. I was going around trying to get everyone to smile. No > disrespect was intended towards him. I even got my mom and aunt to laugh > a little. I couldnt bring myself to cry. After the funeral was over and > everyone left is when I cried. > Even now when I face this I try to crack jokes and think of something to > lighten things up. I guess I try and not take life to seriously > afterall. Thats what I believe. You cant take life to seriously. Now I > know life is precious and all that and in the aftermath of the WTC, > pentagon, and PA. atrocitys I dont mean to sound like I am making light > of that. But for me personally. > There you have it. Why am I burdening you all with this? Outside of my > family I have one true friend I trust. After I got home I told him. I > dont have alot of friends in my life. I guess I am just not that > outgoing and all. I have always been a home body and I dont like going > out on the town. I dunno why. > But outside of that I dont have to many people to talk to to sort things > out in my head. After I talked to Tim it helped me kinda get things > right. And after unloading this post and typing things out its helps a > little too. > Like I said I aint worried at all about this. Life always goes on. And > it always will. Now what about this whole thing I have just talked about > is suppose to help others? Maybe this. > Going out and getting a pack of smokes because of this hasnt even been > an option. Hell I could even play the little trick of having "just one" > right before and then getting shocked. What the hell I probably wont > remember it so whats the problem. Right? No withdrawl and all. > Yep. Like I have said before and I will say it again. There is > absolutely no reason or excuse good enough to smoke. None whatsoever. > Nadda. Zero. Zilch. > Anyway. Thanks for listening. And no I wont just disappear. You all aint > that lucky. > OFf somewhere waiting to be shocked and not smoking at the same time.

  Response:

  > Friends. I have put up a good front.

  I think many of us take your positive posts for granted.  Take care of yourself  Hawkeye.  I hope this treatment provides the help you are seeking. > OFf somewhere not smoking >

  As usual.  I count on it. Dawn OF

  Response:

  Hey Hawk I will be thinking of you through this – I am sure it will be for the best in the long run and that it will help Well done for not letting this huge thing drive you back to smoking – it is never an option – you are so right Big hugs to you Love Jeanne HOF f3as3 Quitting smoking is the ultimate gift of love you cannot afford NOT to give yourself

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Friends. I have put up a good front. More on this group than at work. At > work people have noticed I havent talked much. I seem kinda down and > silent. Not really smiling much. Laugh a little at a few funny things > but keeping to myself. Seemingly frustrated and short tempered at times. > I get around my family and do my business and then just wanting to get > home and get in my little cocoon. Just keep to myself. Tired all the > time even after a decent nights sleep. I am not suicidal nor do I wish > to end my life. > As some of you know I have been in treatment for depression for a few > years now. I have been on so many different meds that I shouldve bought > stock in a drug company I would be rich. > So lately I have been down in the dumps again. I went to my doc this > afternoon telling him how I have been feeling. Meds just dont seem to be > working. Tired and all. He then suggested ECT. In other words shock > therapy. > Not like you see in the movies though. They sedate you and then buzz > you. You wake up and then whatever. A chance of memory loss but with > time stuff should come back come back. I aint scared or anything. I just > dont want to lose the precious memorys I have of my nephews and family. > All the rest I can lose and could care less. > When the electricty hits the brain it makes the brain release the > chemicals which are lacking and its more natural I guess. Which also > means I may not need to take the 5 different meds I now take. Then I > will live happily ever after. Right? > Quite frankly I am so sick of everything. I have been fighting this > battle for so long. At times I have no strength left. Then I try a new > drug and things look up for a while then its effectivness wears off and > I am back where I am now. A never ending cycle. I am tired. So once > again I am to the point where I will try anything. Including having > electricty be released straight into my brain? Sure why not. Screw it. I > aint having much fun as it is right now. > I am set up to have a physical thursday afternoon. The toughest part of > that is I have to fast before hand. That truly sucks. I cant remember > the last time I went 8 waking hours without eating. Heh heh. He wants to > start this on monday. So if you dont see or hear from me I probably > forgot about all of you. Yeah right. > I honestly dont know whats going to happen. I have my dad who will take > me to and from these appointments. Confusion right afterwards is common. > Hell maybe I will forget I smoked at one time and then I wont have those > pangs of feeling like smoking. > Damn. I dont know what to think. I know it will all be ok. In the end > everything will work out. I am a survivor and I aint gonna let a little > thing like my brain keep me from living. > Well I guess atleast through the toughest times I have my sense of > humor. I remember when my grandfather past away it was the visitation > the night before. I was going around trying to get everyone to smile. No > disrespect was intended towards him. I even got my mom and aunt to laugh > a little. I couldnt bring myself to cry. After the funeral was over and > everyone left is when I cried. > Even now when I face this I try to crack jokes and think of something to > lighten things up. I guess I try and not take life to seriously > afterall. Thats what I believe. You cant take life to seriously. Now I > know life is precious and all that and in the aftermath of the WTC, > pentagon, and PA. atrocitys I dont mean to sound like I am making light > of that. But for me personally. > There you have it. Why am I burdening you all with this? Outside of my > family I have one true friend I trust. After I got home I told him. I > dont have alot of friends in my life. I guess I am just not that > outgoing and all. I have always been a home body and I dont like going > out on the town. I dunno why. > But outside of that I dont have to many people to talk to to sort things > out in my head. After I talked to Tim it helped me kinda get things > right. And after unloading this post and typing things out its helps a > little too. > Like I said I aint worried at all about this. Life always goes on. And > it always will. Now what about this whole thing I have just talked about > is suppose to help others? Maybe this. > Going out and getting a pack of smokes because of this hasnt even been > an option. Hell I could even play the little trick of having "just one" > right before and then getting shocked. What the hell I probably wont > remember it so whats the problem. Right? No withdrawl and all. > Yep. Like I have said before and I will say it again. There is > absolutely no reason or excuse good enough to smoke. None whatsoever. > Nadda. Zero. Zilch. > Anyway. Thanks for listening. And no I wont just disappear. You all aint > that lucky. > OFf somewhere waiting to be shocked and not smoking at the same time.

  Response:

  hug, hug, hug  {{{{{{{hawkeye}}}}}} you will be fine.  i promise. sherry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Friends. I have put up a good front. More on this group than at work. At > work people have noticed I havent talked much. I seem kinda down and > silent. Not really smiling much. Laugh a little at a few funny things > but keeping to myself. Seemingly frustrated and short tempered at times. > I get around my family and do my business and then just wanting to get > home and get in my little cocoon. Just keep to myself. Tired all the > time even after a decent nights sleep. I am not suicidal nor do I wish > to end my life. > As some of you know I have been in treatment for depression for a few > years now. I have been on so many different meds that I shouldve bought > stock in a drug company I would be rich. > So lately I have been down in the dumps again. I went to my doc this > afternoon telling him how I have been feeling. Meds just dont seem to be > working. Tired and all. He then suggested ECT. In other words shock > therapy. > Not like you see in the movies though. They sedate you and then buzz > you. You wake up and then whatever. A chance of memory loss but with > time stuff should come back come back. I aint scared or anything. I just > dont want to lose the precious memorys I have of my nephews and family. > All the rest I can lose and could care less. > When the electricty hits the brain it makes the brain release the > chemicals which are lacking and its more natural I guess. Which also > means I may not need to take the 5 different meds I now take. Then I > will live happily ever after. Right? > Quite frankly I am so sick of everything. I have been fighting this > battle for so long. At times I have no strength left. Then I try a new > drug and things look up for a while then its effectivness wears off and > I am back where I am now. A never ending cycle. I am tired. So once > again I am to the point where I will try anything. Including having > electricty be released straight into my brain? Sure why not. Screw it. I > aint having much fun as it is right now. > I am set up to have a physical thursday afternoon. The toughest part of > that is I have to fast before hand. That truly sucks. I cant remember > the last time I went 8 waking hours without eating. Heh heh. He wants to > start this on monday. So if you dont see or hear from me I probably > forgot about all of you. Yeah right. > I honestly dont know whats going to happen. I have my dad who will take > me to and from these appointments. Confusion right afterwards is common. > Hell maybe I will forget I smoked at one time and then I wont have those > pangs of feeling like smoking. > Damn. I dont know what to think. I know it will all be ok. In the end > everything will work out. I am a survivor and I aint gonna let a little > thing like my brain keep me from living. > Well I guess atleast through the toughest times I have my sense of > humor. I remember when my grandfather past away it was the visitation > the night before. I was going around trying to get everyone to smile. No > disrespect was intended towards him. I even got my mom and aunt to laugh > a little. I couldnt bring myself to cry. After the funeral was over and > everyone left is when I cried. > Even now when I face this I try to crack jokes and think of something to > lighten things up. I guess I try and not take life to seriously > afterall. Thats what I believe. You cant take life to seriously. Now I > know life is precious and all that and in the aftermath of the WTC, > pentagon, and PA. atrocitys I dont mean to sound like I am making light > of that. But for me personally. > There you have it. Why am I burdening you all with this? Outside of my > family I have one true friend I trust. After I got home I told him. I > dont have alot of friends in my life. I guess I am just not that > outgoing and all. I have always been a home body and I dont like going > out on the town. I dunno why. > But outside of that I dont have to many people to talk to to sort things > out in my head. After I talked to Tim it helped me kinda get things > right. And after unloading this post and typing things out its helps a > little too. > Like I said I aint worried at all about this. Life always goes on. And > it always will. Now what about this whole thing I have just talked about > is suppose to help others? Maybe this. > Going out and getting a pack of smokes because of this hasnt even been > an option. Hell I could even play the little trick of having "just one" > right before and then getting shocked. What the hell I probably wont > remember it so whats the problem. Right? No withdrawl and all. > Yep. Like I have said before and I will say it again. There is > absolutely no reason or excuse good enough to smoke. None whatsoever. > Nadda. Zero. Zilch. > Anyway. Thanks for listening. And no I wont just disappear. You all aint > that lucky. > OFf somewhere waiting to be shocked and not smoking at the same time.

  Response:

  Nothing to add other than you have my support.  I’ve been in counselling on and off for years and can identify with some of what you’re going through. Makes me wish there was a way to rewire one’s head at times.  Best of luck Greg Groth Five months, two weeks, two days, 19 hours, 34 minutes and 44 seconds. 6792 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,358.19. Life saved: 3 weeks, 2 days, 14 hours, 0 minutes.

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Friends. I have put up a good front. More on this group than at work. At > work people have noticed I havent talked much. I seem kinda down and > silent. Not really smiling much. Laugh a little at a few funny things > but keeping to myself. Seemingly frustrated and short tempered at times. > I get around my family and do my business and then just wanting to get > home and get in my little cocoon. Just keep to myself. Tired all the > time even after a decent nights sleep. I am not suicidal nor do I wish > to end my life. > As some of you know I have been in treatment for depression for a few > years now. I have been on so many different meds that I shouldve bought > stock in a drug company I would be rich. > So lately I have been down in the dumps again. I went to my doc this > afternoon telling him how I have been feeling. Meds just dont seem to be > working. Tired and all. He then suggested ECT. In other words shock > therapy. > Not like you see in the movies though. They sedate you and then buzz > you. You wake up and then whatever. A chance of memory loss but with > time stuff should come back come back. I aint scared or anything. I just > dont want to lose the precious memorys I have of my nephews and family. > All the rest I can lose and could care less. > When the electricty hits the brain it makes the brain release the > chemicals which are lacking and its more natural I guess. Which also > means I may not need to take the 5 different meds I now take. Then I > will live happily ever after. Right? > Quite frankly I am so sick of everything. I have been fighting this > battle for so long. At times I have no strength left. Then I try a new > drug and things look up for a while then its effectivness wears off and > I am back where I am now. A never ending cycle. I am tired. So once > again I am to the point where I will try anything. Including having > electricty be released straight into my brain? Sure why not. Screw it. I > aint having much fun as it is right now. > I am set up to have a physical thursday afternoon. The toughest part of > that is I have to fast before hand. That truly sucks. I cant remember > the last time I went 8 waking hours without eating. Heh heh. He wants to > start this on monday. So if you dont see or hear from me I probably > forgot about all of you. Yeah right. > I honestly dont know whats going to happen. I have my dad who will take > me to and from these appointments. Confusion right afterwards is common. > Hell maybe I will forget I smoked at one time and then I wont have those > pangs of feeling like smoking. > Damn. I dont know what to think. I know it will all be ok. In the end > everything will work out. I am a survivor and I aint gonna let a little > thing like my brain keep me from living. > Well I guess atleast through the toughest times I have my sense of > humor. I remember when my grandfather past away it was the visitation > the night before. I was going around trying to get everyone to smile. No > disrespect was intended towards him. I even got my mom and aunt to laugh > a little. I couldnt bring myself to cry. After the funeral was over and > everyone left is when I cried. > Even now when I face this I try to crack jokes and think of something to > lighten things up. I guess I try and not take life to seriously > afterall. Thats what I believe. You cant take life to seriously. Now I > know life is precious and all that and in the aftermath of the WTC, > pentagon, and PA. atrocitys I dont mean to sound like I am making light > of that. But for me personally. > There you have it. Why am I burdening you all with this? Outside of my > family I have one true friend I trust. After I got home I told him. I > dont have alot of friends in my life. I guess I am just not that > outgoing and all. I have always been a home body and I dont like going > out on the town. I dunno why. > But outside of that I dont have to many people to talk to to sort things > out in my head. After I talked to Tim it helped me kinda get things > right. And after unloading this post and typing things out its helps a > little too. > Like I said I aint worried at all about this. Life always goes on. And > it always will. Now what about this whole thing I have just talked about > is suppose to help others? Maybe this. > Going out and getting a pack of smokes because of this hasnt even been > an option. Hell I could even play the little trick of having "just one" > right before and then getting shocked. What the hell I probably wont > remember it so whats the problem. Right? No withdrawl and all. > Yep. Like I have said before and I will say it again. There is > absolutely no reason or excuse good enough to smoke. None whatsoever. > Nadda. Zero. Zilch. > Anyway. Thanks for listening. And no I wont just disappear. You all aint > that lucky. > OFf somewhere waiting to be shocked and not smoking at the same time.

  Response:

  Hi Hawk !      Sorry to hear you are having such a hard time with your depression. My husband, Ted, is bi-polor with a tendency more toward depression. He had ECT 26 years ago and again 10 years ago. Yea, he lost some memory but it has kept him going and out of the big depressions. Both times it was like his meds had stopped working and after the treatments they did, he is doing OK but stays on meds, includung Lithium. Unfortunately he had to have his done while in the hosp. for depression. So far his quit has not effected him with the depression yet. We are very much on the look out for it.      We truly understand what you and your family are going through. You will be in our thoughts and prayers.      If you need to talk or wirte you can e-mail us any time. Judi & Ted Three months, two weeks, five days, 23 hours, 17 minutes and 13 seconds. 7837 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,567.58. Life saved: 3 weeks, 6 days, 5 hours, 5 minutes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Friends. I have put up a good front. More on this group than at work. At >work people have noticed I havent talked much. I seem kinda down and >silent. Not really smiling much. Laugh a little at a few funny things >but keeping to myself. Seemingly frustrated and short tempered at times. >I get around my family and do my business and then just wanting to get >home and get in my little cocoon. Just keep to myself. Tired all the >time even after a decent nights sleep. I am not suicidal nor do I wish >to end my life. >As some of you know I have been in treatment for depression for a few >years now. I have been on so many different meds that I shouldve bought >stock in a drug company I would be rich. >So lately I have been down in the dumps again. I went to my doc this >afternoon telling him how I have been feeling. Meds just dont seem to be >working. Tired and all. He then suggested ECT. In other words shock >therapy. >Not like you see in the movies though. They sedate you and then buzz >you. You wake up and then whatever. A chance of memory loss but with >time stuff should come back come back. I aint scared or anything. I just >dont want to lose the precious memorys I have of my nephews and family. >All the rest I can lose and could care less. >When the electricty hits the brain it makes the brain release the >chemicals which are lacking and its more natural I guess. Which also >means I may not need to take the 5 different meds I now take. Then I >will live happily ever after. Right? >Quite frankly I am so sick of everything. I have been fighting this >battle for so long. At times I have no strength left. Then I try a new >drug and things look up for a while then its effectivness wears off and >I am back where I am now. A never ending cycle. I am tired. So once >again I am to the point where I will try anything. Including having >electricty be released straight into my brain? Sure why not. Screw it. I >aint having much fun as it is right now. >I am set up to have a physical thursday afternoon. The toughest part of >that is I have to fast before hand. That truly sucks. I cant remember >the last time I went 8 waking hours without eating. Heh heh. He wants to >start this on monday. So if you dont see or hear from me I probably >forgot about all of you. Yeah right. >I honestly dont know whats going to happen. I have my dad who will take >me to and from these appointments. Confusion right afterwards is common. >Hell maybe I will forget I smoked at one time and then I wont have those >pangs of feeling like smoking. >Damn. I dont know what to think. I know it will all be ok. In the end >everything will work out. I am a survivor and I aint gonna let a little >thing like my brain keep me from living. >Well I guess atleast through the toughest times I have my sense of >humor. I remember when my grandfather past away it was the visitation >the night before. I was going around trying to get everyone to smile. No >disrespect was intended towards him. I even got my mom and aunt to laugh >a little. I couldnt bring myself to cry. After the funeral was over and >everyone left is when I cried. >Even now when I face this I try to crack jokes and think of something to >lighten things up. I guess I try and not take life to seriously >afterall. Thats what I believe. You cant take life to seriously. Now I >know life is precious and all that and in the aftermath of the WTC, >pentagon, and PA. atrocitys I dont mean to sound like I am making light >of that. But for me personally. >There you have it. Why am I burdening you all with this? Outside of my >family I have one true friend I trust. After I got home I told him. I >dont have alot of friends in my life. I guess I am just not that >outgoing and all. I have always been a home body and I dont like going >out on the town. I dunno why. >But outside of that I dont have to many people to talk to to sort things >out in my head. After I talked to Tim it helped me kinda get things >right. And after unloading this post and typing things out its helps a >little too. >Like I said I aint worried at all about this. Life always goes on. And >it always will. Now what about this whole thing I have just talked about >is suppose to help others? Maybe this. >Going out and getting a pack of smokes because of this hasnt even been >an option. Hell I could even play the little trick of having "just one" >right before and then getting shocked. What the hell I probably wont >remember it so whats the problem. Right? No withdrawl and all. >Yep. Like I have said before and I will say it again. There is >absolutely no reason or excuse good enough to smoke. None whatsoever. >Nadda. Zero. Zilch. >Anyway. Thanks for listening. And no I wont just disappear. You all aint >that lucky. >OFf somewhere waiting to be shocked and not smoking at the same time.

  Response:

  Dear Hawk, I’m sorry you’ve felt you had to put up a front for us. You don’t. Honest. We’re here for you. Cheerful *or* down in the dumps. But I am truly sorry you’re feeling so down. If there is anything I can do, feel free to drop me an email. Sorry I can’t offer more… Nicole SA #4  f3as3  Seven months, one week, four days, 4 hours, 56 minutes and 6 seconds. 7812 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,390.31. Time I can spend with my little one that I wouldn’t have if I were smoking: 3 weeks, 6 days, 3 hours, 0 minutes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Friends. I have put up a good front. More on this group than at work. At >work people have noticed I havent talked much. I seem kinda down and >silent. Not really smiling much. Laugh a little at a few funny things >but keeping to myself. Seemingly frustrated and short tempered at times. >I get around my family and do my business and then just wanting to get >home and get in my little cocoon. Just keep to myself. Tired all the >time even after a decent nights sleep. I am not suicidal nor do I wish >to end my life. >As some of you know I have been in treatment for depression for a few >years now. I have been on so many different meds that I shouldve bought >stock in a drug company I would be rich. >So lately I have been down in the dumps again. I went to my doc this >afternoon telling him how I have been feeling. Meds just dont seem to be >working. Tired and all. He then suggested ECT. In other words shock >therapy. >Not like you see in the movies though. They sedate you and then buzz >you. You wake up and then whatever. A chance of memory loss but with >time stuff should come back come back. I aint scared or anything. I just >dont want to lose the precious memorys I have of my nephews and family. >All the rest I can lose and could care less. >When the electricty hits the brain it makes the brain release the >chemicals which are lacking and its more natural I guess. Which also >means I may not need to take the 5 different meds I now take. Then I >will live happily ever after. Right? >Quite frankly I am so sick of everything. I have been fighting this >battle for so long. At times I have no strength left. Then I try a new >drug and things look up for a while then its effectivness wears off and >I am back where I am now. A never ending cycle. I am tired. So once >again I am to the point where I will try anything. Including having >electricty be released straight into my brain? Sure why not. Screw it. I >aint having much fun as it is right now. >I am set up to have a physical thursday afternoon. The toughest part of >that is I have to fast before hand. That truly sucks. I cant remember >the last time I went 8 waking hours without eating. Heh heh. He wants to >start this on monday. So if you dont see or hear from me I probably >forgot about all of you. Yeah right. >I honestly dont know whats going to happen. I have my dad who will take >me to and from these appointments. Confusion right afterwards is common. >Hell maybe I will forget I smoked at one time and then I wont have those >pangs of feeling like smoking. >Damn. I dont know what to think. I know it will all be ok. In the end >everything will work out. I am a survivor and I aint gonna let a little >thing like my brain keep me from living. >Well I guess atleast through the toughest times I have my sense of >humor. I remember when my grandfather past away it was the visitation >the night before. I was going around trying to get everyone to smile. No >disrespect was intended towards him. I even got my mom and aunt to laugh >a little. I couldnt bring myself to cry. After the funeral was over and >everyone left is when I cried. >Even now when I face this I try to crack jokes and think of something to >lighten things up. I guess I try and not take life to seriously >afterall. Thats what I believe. You cant take life to seriously. Now I >know life is precious and all that and in the aftermath of the WTC, >pentagon, and PA. atrocitys I dont mean to sound like I am making light >of that. But for me personally. >There you have it. Why am I burdening you all with this? Outside of my >family I have one true friend I trust. After I got home I told him. I >dont have alot of friends in my life. I guess I am just not that >outgoing and all. I have always been a home body and I dont like going >out on the town. I dunno why. >But outside of that I dont have to many people to talk to to sort things >out in my head. After I talked to Tim it helped me kinda get things >right. And after unloading this post and typing things out its helps a >little too. >Like I said I aint worried at all about this. Life always goes on. And >it always will. Now what about this whole thing I have just talked about >is suppose to help others? Maybe this. >Going out and getting a pack of smokes because of this hasnt even been >an option. Hell I could even play the little trick of having "just one" >right before and then getting shocked. What the hell I probably wont >remember it so whats the problem. Right? No withdrawl and all. >Yep. Like I have said before and I will say it again. There is >absolutely no reason or excuse good enough to smoke. None whatsoever. >Nadda. Zero. Zilch. >Anyway. Thanks for listening. And no I wont just disappear. You all aint >that lucky. >OFf somewhere waiting to be shocked and not smoking at the same time.

  If you hold up your head with a smile on your face and are truly thankful… you are blessed because the majority can, but most do not.

  Response:

  Cyberhugs to Hawkeye.  Please lean on us now, we’re here to support you in your time of need as you have the rest of us.   DDJacque OOF – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Friends. I have put up a good front. More on this group than at work. At >work people have noticed I havent talked much. I seem kinda down and >silent. Not really smiling much. Laugh a little at a few funny things >but keeping to myself. Seemingly frustrated and short tempered at times. >I get around my family and do my business and then just wanting to get >home and get in my little cocoon. Just keep to myself. Tired all the >time even after a decent nights sleep. I am not suicidal nor do I wish >to end my life. >As some of you know I have been in treatment for depression for a few >years now. I have been on so many different meds that I shouldve bought >stock in a drug company I would be rich. >So lately I have been down in the dumps again. I went to my doc this >afternoon telling him how I have been feeling. Meds just dont seem to be >working. Tired and all. He then suggested ECT. In other words shock >therapy. >Not like you see in the movies though. They sedate you and then buzz >you. You wake up and then whatever. A chance of memory loss but with >time stuff should come back come back. I aint scared or anything. I just >dont want to lose the precious memorys I have of my nephews and family. >All the rest I can lose and could care less. >When the electricty hits the brain it makes the brain release the >chemicals which are lacking and its more natural I guess. Which also >means I may not need to take the 5 different meds I now take. Then I >will live happily ever after. Right? >Quite frankly I am so sick of everything. I have been fighting this >battle for so long. At times I have no strength left. Then I try a new >drug and things look up for a while then its effectivness wears off and >I am back where I am now. A never ending cycle. I am tired. So once >again I am to the point where I will try anything. Including having >electricty be released straight into my brain? Sure why not. Screw it. I >aint having much fun as it is right now. >I am set up to have a physical thursday afternoon. The toughest part of >that is I have to fast before hand. That truly sucks. I cant remember >the last time I went 8 waking hours without eating. Heh heh. He wants to >start this on monday. So if you dont see or hear from me I probably >forgot about all of you. Yeah right. >I honestly dont know whats going to happen. I have my dad who will take >me to and from these appointments. Confusion right afterwards is common. >Hell maybe I will forget I smoked at one time and then I wont have those >pangs of feeling like smoking. >Damn. I dont know what to think. I know it will all be ok. In the end >everything will work out. I am a survivor and I aint gonna let a little >thing like my brain keep me from living. >Well I guess atleast through the toughest times I have my sense of >humor. I remember when my grandfather past away it was the visitation >the night before. I was going around trying to get everyone to smile. No >disrespect was intended towards him. I even got my mom and aunt to laugh >a little. I couldnt bring myself to cry. After the funeral was over and >everyone left is when I cried. >Even now when I face this I try to crack jokes and think of something to >lighten things up. I guess I try and not take life to seriously >afterall. Thats what I believe. You cant take life to seriously. Now I >know life is precious and all that and in the aftermath of the WTC, >pentagon, and PA. atrocitys I dont mean to sound like I am making light >of that. But for me personally. >There you have it. Why am I burdening you all with this? Outside of my >family I have one true friend I trust. After I got home I told him. I >dont have alot of friends in my life. I guess I am just not that >outgoing and all. I have always been a home body and I dont like going >out on the town. I dunno why. >But outside of that I dont have to many people to talk to to sort things >out in my head. After I talked to Tim it helped me kinda get things >right. And after unloading this post and typing things out its helps a >little too. >Like I said I aint worried at all about this. Life always goes on. And >it always will. Now what about this whole thing I have just talked about >is suppose to help others? Maybe this. >Going out and getting a pack of smokes because of this hasnt even been >an option. Hell I could even play the little trick of having "just one" >right before and then getting shocked. What the hell I probably wont >remember it so whats the problem. Right? No withdrawl and all. >Yep. Like I have said before and I will say it again. There is >absolutely no reason or excuse good enough to smoke. None whatsoever. >Nadda. Zero. Zilch. >Anyway. Thanks for listening. And no I wont just disappear. You all aint >that lucky. >OFf somewhere waiting to be shocked and not smoking at the same time.

  – :-> Jacque

  Response:

  Big hugs for you, Hawkeye. …pat.

  Response:

  Hawkeye, I can’t describe how much your posts meant to me in my quit, especially in those cold, brutal, first days of January and February.  Unlike most of us, you never let yourself get caught up in flame fests and negativism. You always seem to focus on the positive. That says volumes about the strength and depth of your character. You are a remarkable person with a lot of strengths. Some of these strengths may be hidden from you, but others can see them. I know you will be successful in whatever you decide to do to combat the depression, because you come across as such a strong and caring person, and I KNOW that is not a front. David N. Wunner

  Response:

  > Friends. I have put up a good front. More on this group than > at work.

  Hi Hawkeye, Just want to say that I’m sorry to hear you are struggling with the darkness.  I battle that demon frequently myself, and I see that others in the group do also.  Reading your post comforts me in a way, in that it tells me that I may not be crazy after all.  I can go way into the darkness if I don’t keep a sharp eye out for the warning signs and start preparing myself in advance.  I believe in saying, "I feel terrific!" and I say it at least once a day to myself (usually during my morning shower).  And mega-vitamins also seem to ward it off.  I can tell when I’ve forgotten my vites. Alcohol has really started to become an enemy somehow.  I had to swear off "hard" alcohol two years ago because I was no longer able to handle it – I’d always rant and rave about the "uselessness" of life and love (I almost ruined my marriage).  Beer was always a happy buddy until recently.  Now I can’t even drink beer unless I’ve had a big dinner.  I think my body has lost its ability to metabolize alcohol somehow.  Actually though, I feel better without alcohol anymore.  These last three months, since I quit smoking, have really been a dramatic change in my lifestyle.  Yet I can always feel the darkness lurking just outside of the campfire light.  I know you know what I mean. I sometimes wonder if it’s another effect of all the years of smoking.  I don’t remember dark times before I smoked, although autumn has always seemed to affect me harder than my fellow humans.  And I’ve always been preoccupied with the inevitable sadness which lies ahead, 40 or 50 years down life’s highway. No matter what, when I feel good I know that it’s really wonderful to be alive today and each day.  When I feel dark blue I try to remind the "sad" Sam that the "happy" Sam says that it’s good to be alive so I can ride out the storm, and somehow I always do.  And I don’t know what I’d do without my amazing Sara. I just want you to know that you’re not alone.  And you do have a great sense of humor.  Some of your posts have gotten me through some close calls. G’s got a good idea for you, perhaps – have you thought about writing?  And I doubt that you’ll lose memories with electro-therapy, it’s mild electricity, isn’t it?  Maybe it’ll really help.  It’ll be interesting to see how you rate it. Ride that storm out, Hawkeye – we don’t want to lose ya! Sorry I talked your ear off, Sam I Am dammit!  And I am nicotine-free dammit!

  Response:

  I sensed a change in your posts lately, Hawk….something was missing. Hope all turns out ok for you.  You’re needed around here more than you realize.  Take care… Sally

  Response:

  Hawkeye,      I know that our quit time is about the same.  Looks like we’ve got some other common concerns.  I, too, take antidepressants.  Right now they work for me.  However, my wonderful father, who had to be hospitalized on more than one occasion for depression, was finally given shock therapy.  It worked beautifully.  However, he couldn’t eat or function at all by the time they gave this treatment.   I was scared to death, but this therapy is evolving.  He is my daddy again, and I am really grateful.  This happened over two years ago.  However, I believe that he suffered an adverse reaction to a medication he was taking, and this was a huge part of his problem.   They finally found the medicine that worked.  I would just suggest that you get a second opinion, especially if you are still able to work and function.  I am wishing the best for you Hawkeye.  Please keep us posted. Mary B. DOF – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> work people have noticed I havent talked much. I seem kinda down and > silent. Not really smiling much. Laugh a little at a few funny things > but keeping to myself. Seemingly frustrated and short tempered at times. > I get around my family and do my business and then just wanting to get > home and get in my little cocoon. Just keep to myself. Tired all the > time even after a decent nights sleep. I am not suicidal nor do I wish > to end my life. > As some of you know I have been in treatment for depression for a few > years now. I have been on so many different meds that I shouldve bought > stock in a drug company I would be rich. > So lately I have been down in the dumps again. I went to my doc this > afternoon telling him how I have been feeling. Meds just dont seem to be > working. Tired and all. He then suggested ECT. In other words shock > therapy. > Not like you see in the movies though. They sedate you and then buzz > you. You wake up and then whatever. A chance of memory loss but with > time stuff should come back come back. I aint scared or anything. I just > dont want to lose the precious memorys I have of my nephews and family. > All the rest I can lose and could care less. > When the electricty hits the brain it makes the brain release the > chemicals which are lacking and its more natural I guess. Which also > means I may not need to take the 5 different meds I now take. Then I > will live happily ever after. Right? > Quite frankly I am so sick of everything. I have been fighting this > battle for so long. At times I have no strength left. Then I try a new > drug and things look up for a while then its effectivness wears off and > I am back where I am now. A never ending cycle. I am tired. So once > again I am to the point where I will try anything. Including having > electricty be released straight into my brain? Sure why not. Screw it. I > aint having much fun as it is right now. > I am set up to have a physical thursday afternoon. The toughest part of > that is I have to fast before hand. That truly sucks. I cant remember > the last time I went 8 waking hours without eating. Heh heh. He wants to > start this on monday. So if you dont see or hear from me I probably > forgot about all of you. Yeah right. > I honestly dont know whats going to happen. I have my dad who will take > me to and from these appointments. Confusion right afterwards is common. > Hell maybe I will forget I smoked at one time and then I wont have those > pangs of feeling like smoking. > Damn. I dont know what to think. I know it will all be ok. In the end > everything will work out. I am a survivor and I aint gonna let a little > thing like my brain keep me from living. > Well I guess atleast through the toughest times I have my sense of > humor. I remember when my grandfather past away it was the visitation > the night before. I was going around trying to get everyone to smile. No > disrespect was intended towards him. I even got my mom and aunt to laugh > a little. I couldnt bring myself to cry. After the funeral was over and > everyone left is when I cried. > Even now when I face this I try to crack jokes and think of something to > lighten things up. I guess I try and not take life to seriously > afterall. Thats what I believe. You cant take life to seriously. Now I > know life is precious and all that and in the aftermath of the WTC, > pentagon, and PA. atrocitys I dont mean to sound like I am making light > of that. But for me personally. > There you have it. Why am I burdening you all with this? Outside of my > family I have one true friend I trust. After I got home I told him. I > dont have alot of friends in my life. I guess I am just not that > outgoing and all. I have always been a home body and I dont like going > out on the town. I dunno why. > But outside of that I dont have to many people to talk to to sort things > out in my head. After I talked to Tim it helped me kinda get things > right. And after unloading this post and typing things out its helps a > little too. > Like I said I aint worried at all about this. Life always goes on. And > it always will. Now what about this whole thing I have just talked about > is suppose to help others? Maybe this. > Going out and getting a pack of smokes because of this hasnt even been > an option. Hell I could even play the little trick of having "just one" > right before and then getting shocked. What the hell I probably wont > remember it so whats the problem. Right? No withdrawl and all. > Yep. Like I have said before and I will say it again. There is > absolutely no reason or excuse good enough to smoke. None whatsoever. > Nadda. Zero. Zilch. > Anyway. Thanks for listening. And no I wont just disappear. You all aint > that lucky. > OFf somewhere waiting to be shocked and not smoking at the same time.

  Response:

  Hawkeye – I can’t offer anything useful – advice, experience or anything – but I want you to know I’m one of those who are sitting here quietly thinking about you and hoping it all comes out right. You are one of the special people – you are truly valued by who knows how many posters & lurkers here – and we all need you in working order. Please come back with a smile on your face Ally

  Response:

  Hiya, HE:  don’t really know what to say Hawk, just want you to know that you DO have friends and admirers right here. People who care about you and look forward to your uplifting and supportive messages.  I wish I could help you in some way.  I will be thinking of you, and yes praying too that all will be better, and that my friend Hawk will have a glint in his eye and a spring in his step very soon. You are loved.  And in honor of you, I’m gonna hug my post-person next time I get a chance Tammy 2y+

  :> Friends. I have put up a good front. More on this group than at work. At :> work people have noticed I havent talked much. I seem kinda down and :> silent. Not really smiling much. Laugh a little at a few funny things :> but keeping to myself. Seemingly frustrated and short tempered at times. :> :> <snip> :> OFf somewhere waiting to be shocked and not smoking at the same time. : Still making jokes…. ya` gotta love that : — : -I have to change this sig.

  Response:

  In alt.support.stop-smoking, on 19 Sep 2001, Hawkeye announced: > Friends. I have put up a good front. More on this group than > at work.

  Good luck Hawkeye, I hope you’re feeling much better soon! Regards OgO — my Quitting smoking page: http://qjc.cjb.net/quit.html Quit Stats home page: http://qjc.cjb.net/quitstats.html  -=- Current version 0.9.2 – released 01/08/2001 -=- Please don’t send me junk leaves! (take them out before replying). wun – HOF++ – f3as3 – asdfg (ok, I made that last one up Since 1/01/01 at 10:31:05 AM, OgO has not smoked for: 8 months, 2 weeks, 4 days, 13 minutes and 26 seconds.  5,220 cigarettes not smoked, $1,461.69 saved, life saved 2W 4D 3:01:38.

  Response:

  Hawk, When is your book coming out? You have SOME talent for writing…. that’s for sure! Best wishes to you. -G. 6m+++ > Friends. I have put up a good front. More on this group than at work. At > work people have noticed I havent talked much. I seem kinda down and > silent. Not really smiling much. Laugh a little at a few funny things > but keeping to myself. Seemingly frustrated and short tempered at times. > <snip> > OFf somewhere waiting to be shocked and not smoking at the same time.

  Still making jokes…. ya` gotta love that — -I have to change this sig.

  Response:

  I was sorry to read your not doing so great.  I cant offer much.. but I do hope that it gets better for you sooner then soon.  I dont claim to know much about depression.. but I did go through an extremely bad patch after the birth of my triplets and it went on for several months.  I can somewhat understand what your going through.  I admire your strength in character that keeps you from just giving up on the smoking crap when you have had so much to deal with from what I read in your post. I really hope that the ECT works for you and that you may find relief from this. Please take care and dont forget us :0) PennieM Three weeks, three days, 19 hours, 44 minutes and 53 seconds. 868 cigarettes not smoked, saving $173.76. Life saved: 3 days, 20 minutes.

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Friends. I have put up a good front. More on this group than at work. At > work people have noticed I havent talked much. I seem kinda down and > silent. Not really smiling much. Laugh a little at a few funny things > but keeping to myself. Seemingly frustrated and short tempered at times. > I get around my family and do my business and then just wanting to get > home and get in my little cocoon. Just keep to myself. Tired all the > time even after a decent nights sleep. I am not suicidal nor do I wish > to end my life. > As some of you know I have been in treatment for depression for a few > years now. I have been on so many different meds that I shouldve bought > stock in a drug company I would be rich. > So lately I have been down in the dumps again. I went to my doc this > afternoon telling him how I have been feeling. Meds just dont seem to be > working. Tired and all. He then suggested ECT. In other words shock > therapy. > Not like you see in the movies though. They sedate you and then buzz > you. You wake up and then whatever. A chance of memory loss but with > time stuff should come back come back. I aint scared or anything. I just > dont want to lose the precious memorys I have of my nephews and family. > All the rest I can lose and could care less. > When the electricty hits the brain it makes the brain release the > chemicals which are lacking and its more natural I guess. Which also > means I may not need to take the 5 different meds I now take. Then I > will live happily ever after. Right? > Quite frankly I am so sick of everything. I have been fighting this > battle for so long. At times I have no strength left. Then I try a new > drug and things look up for a while then its effectivness wears off and > I am back where I am now. A never ending cycle. I am tired. So once > again I am to the point where I will try anything. Including having > electricty be released straight into my brain? Sure why not. Screw it. I > aint having much fun as it is right now. > I am set up to have a physical thursday afternoon. The toughest part of > that is I have to fast before hand. That truly sucks. I cant remember > the last time I went 8 waking hours without eating. Heh heh. He wants to > start this on monday. So if you dont see or hear from me I probably > forgot about all of you. Yeah right. > I honestly dont know whats going to happen. I have my dad who will take > me to and from these appointments. Confusion right afterwards is common. > Hell maybe I will forget I smoked at one time and then I wont have those > pangs of feeling like smoking. > Damn. I dont know what to think. I know it will all be ok. In the end > everything will work out. I am a survivor and I aint gonna let a little > thing like my brain keep me from living. > Well I guess atleast through the toughest times I have my sense of > humor. I remember when my grandfather past away it was the visitation > the night before. I was going around trying to get everyone to smile. No > disrespect was intended towards him. I even got my mom and aunt to laugh > a little. I couldnt bring myself to cry. After the funeral was over and > everyone left is when I cried. > Even now when I face this I try to crack jokes and think of something to > lighten things up. I guess I try and not take life to seriously > afterall. Thats what I believe. You cant take life to seriously. Now I > know life is precious and all that and in the aftermath of the WTC, > pentagon, and PA. atrocitys I dont mean to sound like I am making light > of that. But for me personally. > There you have it. Why am I burdening you all with this? Outside of my > family I have one true friend I trust. After I got home I told him. I > dont have alot of friends in my life. I guess I am just not that > outgoing and all. I have always been a home body and I dont like going > out on the town. I dunno why. > But outside of that I dont have to many people to talk to to sort things > out in my head. After I talked to Tim it helped me kinda get things > right. And after unloading this post and typing things out its helps a > little too. > Like I said I aint worried at all about this. Life always goes on. And > it always will. Now what about this whole thing I have just talked about > is suppose to help others? Maybe this. > Going out and getting a pack of smokes because of this hasnt even been > an option. Hell I could even play the little trick of having "just one" > right before and then getting shocked. What the hell I probably wont > remember it so whats the problem. Right? No withdrawl and all. > Yep. Like I have said before and I will say it again. There is > absolutely no reason or excuse good enough to smoke. None whatsoever. > Nadda. Zero. Zilch. > Anyway. Thanks for listening. And no I wont just disappear. You all aint > that lucky. > OFf somewhere waiting to be shocked and not smoking at the same time.

  Response:

  Hawkeye. This is some post. One of your more heavy-duty offerings. I am assuming that you present it here for, one; to get something off your chest and two; to maybe get a bit of feedback. >Even now when I face this I try to crack jokes and think of something to >lighten things up. I guess I try and not take life to seriously >afterall. Thats what I believe. You cant take life to seriously.

  You can’t take life too seriously? What do you call ECT? Hardly a bundle of laughs is it? How come you have not mentioned the other remaining prone of psychiatry in your post – psychotherapy. And I’m not just talking about ‘the talking cure’, but something a bit more profound than just ‘telling your story’. If you’ve already followed this route then obviously please ignore everything I’ve said, but surely an account, a summary of such despair and hopelessness is incomplete without psychological/emotional – turning the ‘black’ into the ‘blue’, so to speak. There’s not a great deal of room for the ‘negative’ in this world. Always look on the bright side of life people say, do this do that, count your chickens, positive thinking, take meds etc….the world goes too quick sometimes for us to take stock and deal with things as we should really deal with them. Anyway bud, I have no answers, nobody here does. For what it’s worth I would love to see you throw those meds away, forget the ECT and write a few journals instead. You might be surprised where it might lead you. As ever, good luck to you. Depression can be real foul. BobF 1y

  Response:

  dear bob, your post hit me between the eyes, and let me assure you, that it was a good as you know, i have been treated on and off for many years for my system, was all it took and the mental walls "came tumbling down!" i will be following your progress, and am here and in email if you need i REALLY relate to be "tired" of the depression rat race! rosie — read and post daily! rosie AMERICAN RED CROSS http://www.redcross.org/ LIGHT A CANDLE http://lightacandle.sol.dk/

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Friends. I have put up a good front. More on this group than at work. At > work people have noticed I havent talked much. I seem kinda down and > silent. Not really smiling much. Laugh a little at a few funny things > but keeping to myself. Seemingly frustrated and short tempered at times. > I get around my family and do my business and then just wanting to get > home and get in my little cocoon. Just keep to myself. Tired all the > time even after a decent nights sleep. I am not suicidal nor do I wish > to end my life. > As some of you know I have been in treatment for depression for a few > years now. I have been on so many different meds that I shouldve bought > stock in a drug company I would be rich. > So lately I have been down in the dumps again. I went to my doc this > afternoon telling him how I have been feeling. Meds just dont seem to be > working. Tired and all. He then suggested ECT. In other words shock > therapy. > Not like you see in the movies though. They sedate you and then buzz > you. You wake up and then whatever. A chance of memory loss but with > time stuff should come back come back. I aint scared or anything. I just > dont want to lose the precious memorys I have of my nephews and family. > All the rest I can lose and could care less. > When the electricty hits the brain it makes the brain release the > chemicals which are lacking and its more natural I guess. Which also > means I may not need to take the 5 different meds I now take. Then I > will live happily ever after. Right? > Quite frankly I am so sick of everything. I have been fighting this > battle for so long. At times I have no strength left. Then I try a new > drug and things look up for a while then its effectivness wears off and > I am back where I am now. A never ending cycle. I am tired. So once > again I am to the point where I will try anything. Including having > electricty be released straight into my brain? Sure why not. Screw it. I > aint having much fun as it is right now. > I am set up to have a physical thursday afternoon. The toughest part of > that is I have to fast before hand. That truly sucks. I cant remember > the last time I went 8 waking hours without eating. Heh heh. He wants to > start this on monday. So if you dont see or hear from me I probably > forgot about all of you. Yeah right. > I honestly dont know whats going to happen. I have my dad who will take > me to and from these appointments. Confusion right afterwards is common. > Hell maybe I will forget I smoked at one time and then I wont have those > pangs of feeling like smoking. > Damn. I dont know what to think. I know it will all be ok. In the end > everything will work out. I am a survivor and I aint gonna let a little > thing like my brain keep me from living. > Well I guess atleast through the toughest times I have my sense of > humor. I remember when my grandfather past away it was the visitation > the night before. I was going around trying to get everyone to smile. No > disrespect was intended towards him. I even got my mom and aunt to laugh > a little. I couldnt bring myself to cry. After the funeral was over and > everyone left is when I cried. > Even now when I face this I try to crack jokes and think of something to > lighten things up. I guess I try and not take life to seriously > afterall. Thats what I believe. You cant take life to seriously. Now I > know life is precious and all that and in the aftermath of the WTC, > pentagon, and PA. atrocitys I dont mean to sound like I am making light > of that. But for me personally. > There you have it. Why am I burdening you all with this? Outside of my > family I have one true friend I trust. After I got home I told him. I > dont have alot of friends in my life. I guess I am just not that > outgoing and all. I have always been a home body and I dont like going > out on the town. I dunno why. > But outside of that I dont have to many people to talk to to sort things > out in my head. After I talked to Tim it helped me kinda get things > right. And after unloading this post and typing things out its helps a > little too. > Like I said I aint worried at all about this. Life always goes on. And > it always will. Now what about this whole thing I have just talked about > is suppose to help others? Maybe this. > Going out and getting a pack of smokes because of this hasnt even been > an option. Hell I could even play the little trick of having "just one" > right before and then getting shocked. What the hell I probably wont > remember it so whats the problem. Right? No withdrawl and all. > Yep. Like I have said before and I will say it again. There is > absolutely no reason or excuse good enough to smoke. None whatsoever. > Nadda. Zero. Zilch. > Anyway. Thanks for listening. And no I wont just disappear. You all aint > that lucky. > OFf somewhere waiting to be shocked and not smoking at the same time.

  Response:

  Gee whiz Hawk, I am so sorry to read that you are in the valley of darkness again.Damn those non-firing brain cells.I know what that is like. Don’t know how to comfort you, don’t know what to say to make you feel better. Only thing I can do is to send you a big cyber hug and say a prayer for you at bedtime.Don’t know much about ECT but sure hope it works better than those anti-depressant meds you have been taken. You are in my thoughts and prayers. Hugs, Monika

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Friends. I have put up a good front. More on this group than at work. At > work people have noticed I havent talked much. I seem kinda down and > silent. Not really smiling much. Laugh a little at a few funny things > but keeping to myself. Seemingly frustrated and short tempered at times. > I get around my family and do my business and then just wanting to get > home and get in my little cocoon. Just keep to myself. Tired all the > time even after a decent nights sleep. I am not suicidal nor do I wish > to end my life. > As some of you know I have been in treatment for depression for a few > years now. I have been on so many different meds that I shouldve bought > stock in a drug company I would be rich. > So lately I have been down in the dumps again. I went to my doc this > afternoon telling him how I have been feeling. Meds just dont seem to be > working. Tired and all. He then suggested ECT. In other words shock > therapy. > Not like you see in the movies though. They sedate you and then buzz > you. You wake up and then whatever. A chance of memory loss but with > time stuff should come back come back. I aint scared or anything. I just > dont want to lose the precious memorys I have of my nephews and family. > All the rest I can lose and could care less. > When the electricty hits the brain it makes the brain release the > chemicals which are lacking and its more natural I guess. Which also > means I may not need to take the 5 different meds I now take. Then I > will live happily ever after. Right? > Quite frankly I am so sick of everything. I have been fighting this > battle for so long. At times I have no strength left. Then I try a new > drug and things look up for a while then its effectivness wears off and > I am back where I am now. A never ending cycle. I am tired. So once > again I am to the point where I will try anything. Including having > electricty be released straight into my brain? Sure why not. Screw it. I > aint having much fun as it is right now. > I am set up to have a physical thursday afternoon. The toughest part of > that is I have to fast before hand. That truly sucks. I cant remember > the last time I went 8 waking hours without eating. Heh heh. He wants to > start this on monday. So if you dont see or hear from me I probably > forgot about all of you. Yeah right. > I honestly dont know whats going to happen. I have my dad who will take > me to and from these appointments. Confusion right afterwards is common. > Hell maybe I will forget I smoked at one time and then I wont have those > pangs of feeling like smoking. > Damn. I dont know what to think. I know it will all be ok. In the end > everything will work out. I am a survivor and I aint gonna let a little > thing like my brain keep me from living. > Well I guess atleast through the toughest times I have my sense of > humor. I remember when my grandfather past away it was the visitation > the night before. I was going around trying to get everyone to smile. No > disrespect was intended towards him. I even got my mom and aunt to laugh > a little. I couldnt bring myself to cry. After the funeral was over and > everyone left is when I cried. > Even now when I face this I try to crack jokes and think of something to > lighten things up. I guess I try and not take life to seriously > afterall. Thats what I believe. You cant take life to seriously. Now I > know life is precious and all that and in the aftermath of the WTC, > pentagon, and PA. atrocitys I dont mean to sound like I am making light > of that. But for me personally. > There you have it. Why am I burdening you all with this? Outside of my > family I have one true friend I trust. After I got home I told him. I > dont have alot of friends in my life. I guess I am just not that > outgoing and all. I have always been a home body and I dont like going > out on the town. I dunno why. > But outside of that I dont have to many people to talk to to sort things > out in my head. After I talked to Tim it helped me kinda get things > right. And after unloading this post and typing things out its helps a > little too. > Like I said I aint worried at all about this. Life always goes on. And > it always will. Now what about this whole thing I have just talked about > is suppose to help others? Maybe this. > Going out and getting a pack of smokes because of this hasnt even been > an option. Hell I could even play the little trick of having "just one" > right before and then getting shocked. What the hell I probably wont > remember it so whats the problem. Right? No withdrawl and all. > Yep. Like I have said before and I will say it again. There is > absolutely no reason or excuse good enough to smoke. None whatsoever. > Nadda. Zero. Zilch. > Anyway. Thanks for listening. And no I wont just disappear. You all aint > that lucky. > OFf somewhere waiting to be shocked and not smoking at the same time.

  Response:

  Friends. I have put up a good front. More on this group than at work. At work people have noticed I havent talked much. I seem kinda down and silent. Not really smiling much. Laugh a little at a few funny things but keeping to myself. Seemingly frustrated and short tempered at times. I get around my family and do my business and then just wanting to get home and get in my little cocoon. Just keep to myself. Tired all the time even after a decent nights sleep. I am not suicidal nor do I wish to end my life. As some of you know I have been in treatment for depression for a few years now. I have been on so many different meds that I shouldve bought stock in a drug company I would be rich. So lately I have been down in the dumps again. I went to my doc this afternoon telling him how I have been feeling. Meds just dont seem to be working. Tired and all. He then suggested ECT. In other words shock therapy. Not like you see in the movies though. They sedate you and then buzz you. You wake up and then whatever. A chance of memory loss but with time stuff should come back come back. I aint scared or anything. I just dont want to lose the precious memorys I have of my nephews and family. All the rest I can lose and could care less. When the electricty hits the brain it makes the brain release the chemicals which are lacking and its more natural I guess. Which also means I may not need to take the 5 different meds I now take. Then I will live happily ever after. Right? Quite frankly I am so sick of everything. I have been fighting this battle for so long. At times I have no strength left. Then I try a new drug and things look up for a while then its effectivness wears off and I am back where I am now. A never ending cycle. I am tired. So once again I am to the point where I will try anything. Including having electricty be released straight into my brain? Sure why not. Screw it. I aint having much fun as it is right now. I am set up to have a physical thursday afternoon. The toughest part of that is I have to fast before hand. That truly sucks. I cant remember the last time I went 8 waking hours without eating. Heh heh. He wants to start this on monday. So if you dont see or hear from me I probably forgot about all of you. Yeah right. I honestly dont know whats going to happen. I have my dad who will take me to and from these appointments. Confusion right afterwards is common. Hell maybe I will forget I smoked at one time and then I wont have those pangs of feeling like smoking. Damn. I dont know what to think. I know it will all be ok. In the end everything will work out. I am a survivor and I aint gonna let a little thing like my brain keep me from living. Well I guess atleast through the toughest times I have my sense of humor. I remember when my grandfather past away it was the visitation the night before. I was going around trying to get everyone to smile. No disrespect was intended towards him. I even got my mom and aunt to laugh a little. I couldnt bring myself to cry. After the funeral was over and everyone left is when I cried. Even now when I face this I try to crack jokes and think of something to lighten things up. I guess I try and not take life to seriously afterall. Thats what I believe. You cant take life to seriously. Now I know life is precious and all that and in the aftermath of the WTC, pentagon, and PA. atrocitys I dont mean to sound like I am making light of that. But for me personally. There you have it. Why am I burdening you all with this? Outside of my family I have one true friend I trust. After I got home I told him. I dont have alot of friends in my life. I guess I am just not that outgoing and all. I have always been a home body and I dont like going out on the town. I dunno why. But outside of that I dont have to many people to talk to to sort things out in my head. After I talked to Tim it helped me kinda get things right. And after unloading this post and typing things out its helps a little too. Like I said I aint worried at all about this. Life always goes on. And it always will. Now what about this whole thing I have just talked about is suppose to help others? Maybe this. Going out and getting a pack of smokes because of this hasnt even been an option. Hell I could even play the little trick of having "just one" right before and then getting shocked. What the hell I probably wont remember it so whats the problem. Right? No withdrawl and all. Yep. Like I have said before and I will say it again. There is absolutely no reason or excuse good enough to smoke. None whatsoever. Nadda. Zero. Zilch. Anyway. Thanks for listening. And no I wont just disappear. You all aint that lucky. OFf somewhere waiting to be shocked and not smoking at the same time.

  Response:

  Bloody hell Hawk, I don’t know what to say.  For what it’s worth, you’ve been the "life and soul of the party" around here – always to be relied upon to say the positive thing, no matter what. I don’t know much about what you’re going to be going through, but I wish you the strength to deal with it. Take care, — Lemming Curiosity *may* have killed Schr

  No comments Recover from Depression
  
  

• we have a problem here.

  Question:

  > Hiya Theory > My advise is to get to your doctor / psychiatrist as soon as possible.  

  Jeanne since I think too much, I decided against going to a psychiatrist right now. My reasoning was that this is the first time in over 13 years I’ve been drug free (no nicotine) and I wanted to give myself and my brain some time to heal on it’s own. The depression is bad but I’m going to try and stick it out for awhile and give myself a chance to learn how to deal with almost uncontrollable emotions of anger and depression etc. I’m always looking for a quick fix and right now that’s how I see an anti-depressant. It’s only been a month. I > remember reading here a few times of quit depression and even tho i never > experienced it,

  Lucky you  I can imagine what it must be like > Good Luck and keep us posted > Love > Jeanne

  I’m feeling better yesterday and today. Thanks Jeanne. -theory ONE Month, 5 days, 14 hours, 46 minutes

  Response:

  Hi theory I am glad to hear you are feeling better. My theory is that we go through a kind of grieving process when we first quit, as we are losing something that was part of our lives for such a long time. I have lost quits at 4 to 6 weeks due to quit depression. This time I have stayed with it and it does get better – but I’ve used St. John’s wort at times to ease me through the bad days, and took it for the first 2 months of this quit. After that, I no longer needed it. You sound like you are doing great Liz 6 months and a bit

  Response:

  >  I knew the only thing that would ruin my quit would be depression, > and here it is. Now the real fight begins. >  -theory > ONE Month, 3 days, 10 hours, 15 minutes

  Hi Theory, I’m pleased to hear you’re asking your doc for help, the depression has got the better of my quit more than once, but things are looking up now. hugs padders (

  No comments Recover from Depression
  
  
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