Depression Recovery

Question:

"Edna Pearl" > For example, many of us agree that it trivializes tobacco addiction to call > it a "bad habit," so we choose the word "addiction."  Most of us jump on any > use of the word "cheat" to refer to a "relapse," and some of us (me me me > take issue with the word "slip" to refer to a "relapse."  These > distinctions help us focus in on our addiction and take it seriously.

And… how about the people who want "options" for not having to reset their meters?   > I submit that it is misleading and it trivializes > tobacco addiction to refer to the "benefits" and "medicinal qualities" of > cigarettes.

Smoking only helps to postpone the next crave (medically speaking). > The older I get, the more I > learn that we don’t get any brownie points for pretending to be "tough," or > "toughing it out," especially when it comes to quitting and especially when > it comes to depression.

Awww…. you’re getting to be too much of a softie Edna! Challenge is good! Otherwise, when that smooth-talking salesman comes to your door and throws every *ricken closing technique at you… you’ll go ahead and wimp-out and BUY that crap!!! > Exactly, and I think we’ve clarified some points.  What I don’t understand > is why nobody else is joining this dialog.  The as3 I remember would have > been all over this topic like a rash.

Sorry I’m late   — Life starts without addiction. I have been freed from tobacco for 4m 3w 2d 9:54, Which means I haven’t smoked 3,198 (handrolled) cigarettes. And, that’s not one puff, toke, drag, draw, hit, or large dose of 2nd hand smoke! (Note: In the event of a relapse, this meter would be reset to zero, but that’s just not going to happen!)          :-p~~~~~~ Keven       (a 46 year old Junqui)

Response:

Well, we all quit when we die, so the quit rate is 100% across the board, so why bother trying, you’ll quit eventually.  Seriously the context of this was that a smoker has a 5% success rate on a given quit, not all combined. I’ve been looking into smoking cessation programs, the best one I’ve seen has a success rate of 40%.  This is abysmal if you ask me, and the reason why insurance companies won’t do reimbursements for them.  Seems they’d save a lot of money by improving the stats, instead of handing out cash for chemo and other procedures needed for dealing with illnesses caused by smoking, but the medical field has always been reactionary, a rant for another time. Greg Groth

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "ggroth9" > and it’s no > wonder the success rate of quitters is 5%. > You mean that 95% of the people that tried to quit are smoking today? You > can toss that out! Ok, so maybe they are not successful on their first > through umpteenth tries. They QUIT. They quit smoking 100%. Anbody who I’ve > ever known that was trying to quit… quit! That makes it a 100% success > rate. Those who stop trying may be the 5%. Statistics can be so damn dumb > sometimes. Just look around to the people you know… > — > Life starts without addiction.

Response:

lots of fear of what we cannot understand.

Response:

> For the record, I will not admit I am a helpless > addict, I am a smoker.  I am not powerless against my addiction, I’m just > working on it.

so you smoke because you WANT TO?

Response:

> lots of fear of what we cannot understand.

Wow, frank, this post is even more cryptic than your usual stuff.  I have no idea what you’re talking about.  Care to elaborate?  :-) epvof

Response:

"ggroth9" > and it’s no > wonder the success rate of quitters is 5%.

You mean that 95% of the people that tried to quit are smoking today? You can toss that out! Ok, so maybe they are not successful on their first through umpteenth tries. They QUIT. They quit smoking 100%. Anbody who I’ve ever known that was trying to quit… quit! That makes it a 100% success rate. Those who stop trying may be the 5%. Statistics can be so damn dumb sometimes. Just look around to the people you know… — Life starts without addiction.

Response:

"Edna Pearl" > I nonetheless feel compelled to take issue with your idea that cigarettes > "medicate" something.

Don’t they medicate the fear of quitting smoking?     — Life starts without addiction.

Response:

>Wow, frank, this post is even more cryptic than your usual stuff.  I have no >idea what you’re talking about.  Care to elaborate?  :-) >epvof

need a translation?  heehee it means fear sucks. k? anyway, at this time of year I remember where I came from. I was a country boy and had this aluminum canoe with a flat back for a 5hp outboard. This time of year I wouyld take it below the dam and hit the rapids and in the shallows I would lay back and look at the eagles and all the fall foliage along the cliffs of the river. cool eh?

Response:

> More of a dig at a couple of off-line responses than anything else.  Last > itme I was around, the rule was that there was no single way to quit, > everyone just offered suggestions on what worked for them more or less.  I > came back in, voiced an opinion, and got hammered with what sounded more > like a 12-step group.

Oh, I see.  Glad I didn’t take it too personally; I always liked you too much to want to be pissed off at you  :-) I’m one of those people who is quite unpersuaded that 12-step would be effective for me.  It has helped so many, for sure, but I can’t go there. > For the record, I will not admit I am a helpless > addict, I am a smoker.  I am not powerless against my addiction, I’m just > working on it.

Yeah, this is one of the things about 12-stepping that I can’t get past — and isn’t it the first step? > If I choose to see the evils of smoking in a different light, > that doesn’t mean I am wrong.

For sure. > Back to my friend with BPD.  She is currently medicating herself with > alcohol more than anything else (self-mutilation, drugs, and whatnot). > While I can’t deny the stupidity of her choice, I can also recognize that if > it wasn’t for the alcohol, she’d be dead by now.  The alcohol does give her > release of her demons, for a time, and allows her to function at some level. > If she chooses to live her life in a drunken stupor, that’s her prerogative, > and I can do nothing to help her.  If she does manage to pull herself to > quit drinking, and faces the world through sober eyes, she’ll probably do > herself in, as she refuses to accept the fact that she might have deeper > problems than alcoholism.

I am so sorry.  All I can offer is that I have seen some amazing recoveries from some horrible psychological messes — we should never give up hope of progress. > I did the same thing IMO.  Blindly facing the world without the medication I > have been pumping into my body for way to long, and then having the bottom > fall out.  The only difference between myself and my friend that I can see > is that I have recognized that smoking might not be the root of my problems, > but just might be a symptom caused by something else.  If I don’t treat that > something else in some other fashion than cigarettes, I’m in for trouble, > which did play itself out last year.

That makes perfect sense to me; I understand what you’re saying and admire you for confronting these issues so squarely.  I hope you’ve got lots of support and assistance in this process, and I wish you the very best of luck and progress.  You’re wise not to rush your quit, and I wish you all possible speed in getting to the point where you are ready to quit. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am using the term medication in the way I read it out of the dictionary: > "something that treats or prevents or alleviates the symptoms of disease". > Nowhere does this term specify that it has to be perfect, that medication > cures anything, that it fixes anything, or that it has no side-effects. All > it does is treat, prevent or alleviate the symptoms of disease.  It also > makes no mention of the question of addiction, just because something is > addictive does not mean it cannot treat, prevent or alleviate symptoms of > disease.  Take for instance obesity, which is sometimes recognized as a > disease.  It’s no surprise to anyone that nicotine acts as an appetite > suppressant, so in theory you could treat obesity with smoking.  Stupid > idea, but I mention it only to back up my opinion that there might be a lot > of people medicating themselves for diseases, ailments, whatever and not > even know it.  To not recognize this fact could be harmful, as there are > plenty of studies that recognize depression as being quite common when > quitting smoking.

I couldn’t agree more; we are totally on the same page. It wouldn’t hurt my feelings if somebody said that my earlier posts on this issue constituted hair-splitting  :-)  The fact is, though, we’ve always done a lot of hair-splitting here at as3, because this kind of consideration and debate can support growth. For example, many of us agree that it trivializes tobacco addiction to call it a "bad habit," so we choose the word "addiction."  Most of us jump on any use of the word "cheat" to refer to a "relapse," and some of us (me me me take issue with the word "slip" to refer to a "relapse."  These distinctions help us focus in on our addiction and take it seriously. And in the same spirit, I submit that it is misleading and it trivializes tobacco addiction to refer to the "benefits" and "medicinal qualities" of cigarettes.  I think it’s counter-productive, and I say so.  And I appreciate the opportunity to clarify the point. > Combine depression with the removal of the medication > (something that treats, prevents or alleviates the symptoms of disease) > which could mean a relapse of whatever that disease might be, and it’s no > wonder the success rate of quitters is 5%.

Amen.  I’ll bet your posts in this thread will encourage some quitters who are having problems to visit their doctors.  The older I get, the more I learn that we don’t get any brownie points for pretending to be "tough," or "toughing it out," especially when it comes to quitting and especially when it comes to depression. > Personally I think we’re along the same line of thought, but using different > definitions for the words we are using to describe them.

Exactly, and I think we’ve clarified some points.  What I don’t understand is why nobody else is joining this dialog.  The as3 I remember would have been all over this topic like a rash.  I get the feeling that maybe there have been some recent disagreements/flame wars here that have left people cautious about debating issues?  I dunno, I haven’t been around much.  Maybe everybody else here just thinks were debating about angels dancing on pinheads.  :-) > I’m not quite > there yet, but I will be quitting soon.  I am not a junkie, and I am not > powerless against this.  I am more educated and informed this time around > (with little thanks to the medical field),

LOL.  Well I guess that answers my question, above, about whether you’re getting good help in this process!  I’m sorry.  I’ve been there.  It sucks. > and I’m not going to fall in the > same footsteps I did last time.  I am taking my time, and trying a different > approach, and a different mindset.  If I try this as blind as I did last > time, I will be powerless against it, as it is a sneaky drug indeed.  This > time I want to be part of the 5%.

Yay! FWIW, it sure sounds like you will be. > BTW, are Wheeler and Padders still around?

I’m not the person to ask as I haven’t been around much, but the last I heard, Wheeler was still quit  :-)  padders relapsed  and neither post very often anymore.  Maybe somebody else here can clue you in. epvof

Response:

Not much really.  Been having a lot of problems with joint pain and tendonitis.  Hoping to get it all straightened out by spring. Greg Groth – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hey Greg, glad to see you’re still around and thinking of us > I wish you all the best with solving the riddle to your depression… it can be > difficult! > Glad you’re back & lurking & posting in prelude to requitting. > Are you still biking? > …pat. > 9m+ > — > Ash’s ICQ:   152392429 > Pat’s ICQ:  153842682

Response:

Hey Greg, glad to see you’re still around and thinking of us I wish you all the best with solving the riddle to your depression… it can be difficult! Glad you’re back & lurking & posting in prelude to requitting. Are you still biking? …pat. 9m+ — Ash’s ICQ:   152392429 Pat’s ICQ:  153842682

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> What a super post.  I started to reply line by line, but what it all boils > down to is that I could not agree more that addicts often rely on > cigarette-smoking, or on whatever their substance of choice is, to mask > depression or some other underlying problem, and I know how unhelpful (and > even destructive) some doctors can be in addressing such self-destructive > behavior.  The general ignorance about addiction and depression in the > medical community can be quite stunning.  And tragic. > I nonetheless feel compelled to take issue with your idea that cigarettes > "medicate" something.  I don’t think that’s any more valid or helpful, and > hardly less "junkie thinking," than saying that cigarettes have "benefits." > Doctors don’t prescribe cigarettes to medicate anything unless, again, that > particular doctor happens to be fantastically ignorant about tobacco > addiction. > I am so sorry about your friend who is receiving inadequate family support > and medical treatment, but I would also point out that your friend’s cutting > herself is OBVIOUSLY not "medicating" her, any more than it is "benefiting" > her, unless you grotesquely twist the meaning of those words.  It may > temporarily palliate her underlying problems, or distract her from them, but > cutting doesn’t medicate any more than crack cocaine or alcohol does. It’s > a temporary, unhealthy pseudo-"fix" that is self-destructive and undermines > the quality of life. > I say that with full awareness that drug-abuse, cutting, or other > self-destructive behaviors may even save an individual’s life, temporarily, > by forestalling suicide, but the same could be said for simply beating a > person unconscious to postpone their suicide.  It may "work," temporarily, > and such desperate measures may even be appropriate on rare occasions, but > it’s not "medication." > And the same is true of smoking. > And again, I don’t mean this as a personal attack on you or your ideas; I > mean this as a rational discussion of those ideas, in the spirit that I > firmly believe that they are counter-productive.  I offer this in the hope > it will help you or somebody else.  And I have no idea what you are talking > about when you say as3 no longer advocates "doing whatever works for you," > so if that was intended as a dig at me, it went over my head like a tent.

More of a dig at a couple of off-line responses than anything else.  Last itme I was around, the rule was that there was no single way to quit, everyone just offered suggestions on what worked for them more or less.  I came back in, voiced an opinion, and got hammered with what sounded more like a 12-step group.  For the record, I will not admit I am a helpless addict, I am a smoker.  I am not powerless against my addiction, I’m just working on it. If I choose to see the evils of smoking in a different light, that doesn’t mean I am wrong. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> What I AM saying is that it is MY belief, based on PERSONAL experience and > YEARS of observation on this newsgroup, that regarding cigarettes as a > "medication" for ANYTHING is a very short, very slippery slope to addiction, > and I offer that belief to you and to anyone else who might benefit from it. > Anyone suffering from depression has my heartfelt sympathies, as depression > almost killed me some years ago.  I do know what it’s like.  And I urge > anyone suffering from depression to seek, indeed *demand*, competent medical > and psychological help to the fullest extent permitted by your personal > resources and those of your local medical community.  And I also hope you > will quit smoking as soon as you are able, because smoking is not helping > you, and you are not doing yourself any favors by pretending it is. > I wish you the most smoothest possible quit when you are ready to quit, > Greg.  Hang in there. > epvof

Back to my friend with BPD.  She is currently medicating herself with alcohol more than anything else (self-mutilation, drugs, and whatnot). While I can’t deny the stupidity of her choice, I can also recognize that if it wasn’t for the alcohol, she’d be dead by now.  The alcohol does give her release of her demons, for a time, and allows her to function at some level. If she chooses to live her life in a drunken stupor, that’s her prerogative, and I can do nothing to help her.  If she does manage to pull herself to quit drinking, and faces the world through sober eyes, she’ll probably do herself in, as she refuses to accept the fact that she might have deeper problems than alcoholism. I did the same thing IMO.  Blindly facing the world without the medication I have been pumping into my body for way to long, and then having the bottom fall out.  The only difference between myself and my friend that I can see is that I have recognized that smoking might not be the root of my problems, but just might be a symptom caused by something else.  If I don’t treat that something else in some other fashion than cigarettes, I’m in for trouble, which did play itself out last year. I am using the term medication in the way I read it out of the dictionary: "something that treats or prevents or alleviates the symptoms of disease". Nowhere does this term specify that it has to be perfect, that medication cures anything, that it fixes anything, or that it has no side-effects.  All it does is treat, prevent or alleviate the symptoms of disease.  It also makes no mention of the question of addiction, just because something is addictive does not mean it cannot treat, prevent or alleviate symptoms of disease.  Take for instance obesity, which is sometimes recognized as a disease.  It’s no surprise to anyone that nicotine acts as an appetite suppressant, so in theory you could treat obesity with smoking.  Stupid idea, but I mention it only to back up my opinion that there might be a lot of people medicating themselves for diseases, ailments, whatever and not even know it.  To not recognize this fact could be harmful, as there are plenty of studies that recognize depression as being quite common when quitting smoking.  Combine depression with the removal of the medication (something that treats, prevents or alleviates the symptoms of disease) which could mean a relapse of whatever that disease might be, and it’s no wonder the success rate of quitters is 5%. Personally I think we’re along the same line of thought, but using different definitions for the words we are using to describe them.  I’m not quite there yet, but I will be quitting soon.  I am not a junkie, and I am not powerless against this.  I am more educated and informed this time around (with little thanks to the medical field), and I’m not going to fall in the same footsteps I did last time.  I am taking my time, and trying a different approach, and a different mindset.  If I try this as blind as I did last time, I will be powerless against it, as it is a sneaky drug indeed.  This time I want to be part of the 5%. BTW, are Wheeler and Padders still around? Greg Groth

Response:

No, seriously, the delivery method does suck. Greg Groth

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->It does provide a benefit, the delivery method sucks. > bullshit.

Response:

What a super post.  I started to reply line by line, but what it all boils down to is that I could not agree more that addicts often rely on cigarette-smoking, or on whatever their substance of choice is, to mask depression or some other underlying problem, and I know how unhelpful (and even destructive) some doctors can be in addressing such self-destructive behavior.  The general ignorance about addiction and depression in the medical community can be quite stunning.  And tragic. I nonetheless feel compelled to take issue with your idea that cigarettes "medicate" something.  I don’t think that’s any more valid or helpful, and hardly less "junkie thinking," than saying that cigarettes have "benefits." Doctors don’t prescribe cigarettes to medicate anything unless, again, that particular doctor happens to be fantastically ignorant about tobacco addiction. I am so sorry about your friend who is receiving inadequate family support and medical treatment, but I would also point out that your friend’s cutting herself is OBVIOUSLY not "medicating" her, any more than it is "benefiting" her, unless you grotesquely twist the meaning of those words.  It may temporarily palliate her underlying problems, or distract her from them, but cutting doesn’t medicate any more than crack cocaine or alcohol does.  It’s a temporary, unhealthy pseudo-"fix" that is self-destructive and undermines the quality of life. I say that with full awareness that drug-abuse, cutting, or other self-destructive behaviors may even save an individual’s life, temporarily, by forestalling suicide, but the same could be said for simply beating a person unconscious to postpone their suicide.  It may "work," temporarily, and such desperate measures may even be appropriate on rare occasions, but it’s not "medication." And the same is true of smoking. And again, I don’t mean this as a personal attack on you or your ideas; I mean this as a rational discussion of those ideas, in the spirit that I firmly believe that they are counter-productive.  I offer this in the hope it will help you or somebody else.  And I have no idea what you are talking about when you say as3 no longer advocates "doing whatever works for you," so if that was intended as a dig at me, it went over my head like a tent. What I AM saying is that it is MY belief, based on PERSONAL experience and YEARS of observation on this newsgroup, that regarding cigarettes as a "medication" for ANYTHING is a very short, very slippery slope to addiction, and I offer that belief to you and to anyone else who might benefit from it. Anyone suffering from depression has my heartfelt sympathies, as depression almost killed me some years ago.  I do know what it’s like.  And I urge anyone suffering from depression to seek, indeed *demand*, competent medical and psychological help to the fullest extent permitted by your personal resources and those of your local medical community.  And I also hope you will quit smoking as soon as you are able, because smoking is not helping you, and you are not doing yourself any favors by pretending it is. I wish you the most smoothest possible quit when you are ready to quit, Greg.  Hang in there. epvof

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Benefit was a word that I used only in response to the original post.  The > word I wanted to use was medicate.  I doubt anyone can tell me whether or > not smoking did or didn’t medicate at least a couple of the things that are > ailing me, as no one to date can quite put their finger on what’s wrong to > begin with.  Considering myself a junkie, and stubbornly believing I could > overcome it with brute force was bullshit.  It blinded me to the fact that > there might be something else wrong, and helped contribute to my relapse. > If I would have recognized other external problems beyond my smoking, I > might have gone to seek help with my ailments sooner, and stayed on the > wagon.  Instead, I fell off, believed that this was due entirely to my > incapability to control my "junkie thinking", and sent my depression > spiraling even lower.  I was further provoked by certain individuals on this > forum to basically "get over it and quit whining" (that was my > interpretation anyway). > Personally I think that not recognizing that nicotine is a drug, and does > have medicinal qualities (note – I did not say benefits) can be extremely > harmful.  If nicotine acts as an anti-depressant, and is removed without > treating the depression, failure is assured along with the added benefit of > destroying one’s self-esteem.  A great combination IMO.  Correcting these > problems before quitting would be the key here, but can be more frustrating > than quitting.  Doctor’s seem to have little interest in looking into > problems any further than some random blood tests, and are quick to provide > prescriptions that address a single issue, rather than looking deeper into > the problem.  Depression can be a bitch to discover as well, as if it’s true > that I’ve been suffering from it for 25 years, two other psychologists > missed this completely over the course of that time.  Thinking that your > addiction is simply thus, and not looking beyond it is a total mistake in > some cases.  As I alluded to earlier, why make this harder than it has to > be?  I’ve moved my stubbornness to correcting my ailments, rather than on my > quit, and am starting to see some light at the end of the tunnel. > Last thing I wanted to mention was your comment of "if a cutter cuts herself > to distance emotional pain".  I have a friend who does precisely this. She > has been a close friend for many, many years now.  She is in a situation > where she will never get treatment, and never be well.  Along with > self-mutilation, she is a very heavy drinker (12-18 beers a day).  She and > her family have identified her drinking as the root cause for all that ails > her, and she is right now in AA following another incident that required 8 > stitches in her wrist.  She will return to drinking, she will return to > self-mutilation.  The reason being is that she has borderline personality > disorder, not a drinking problem.  Her family’s stubbornness, believing that > she is merely an addict, has doomed her to never getting the help she needs. > I am not trying to form a comparison of severe mental disorders and smoking, > I am trying to say that by following a single line of thinking might not be > the correct route in all cases, and that focusing on a single line of > correcting problems can guarantee failure. > As I said in my other post (or at least try to say), I am not trying to > provide reasons to keep smoking, but rather to keep an open mind, look > beyond just the smoking aspect, it might make it easier to quit.  What works > for some people, might not work for all.  Until I can get some proof that > smoking has no medicinal qualities whatsoever (not benefits), I will stand > behind my beliefs and say that sometime smoking does help fix problems. Fix > the problems, and quitting becomes easier, not recognizing this, and you > might end up worse off.  Last time I stuck my nose around here, the > prevalent theme was to do whatever works for you, and from judging from the > replies I’ve been getting (on and off list), that seems to not be the case > anymore.  It’s a pity, I’d hate to see someone else go down the same road I > did. > Greg Groth

Response:

<snip> : Enough of my rambling.  Is Padders still around?  Or BirdBrain (sorry, can’t : remember his real name, been too long) or Jeff?  I’m hoping to get the rest : of my ailments taken care of by the end of the year, and come back and give : it another go.  In preparation I thought I would spend the next couple of : months lurking around, and getting my head in the right space.  Just thought : I’d use this opportunity to stick my nose in, say hi, and let everyone know : I’m planning on bothering everyone with my bike riding stories next year. : Greg Groth I’m sorry to hear of your troubles, Greg, but it is good to see you again.  Hope that all goes better for you and will look forward to those magnificent cycling stories again.  As I’m sure you know, it’s loads easier being a cycle-maniac with healthy lungs. best, Tammy VOF

Response:

Benefit was a word that I used only in response to the original post.  The word I wanted to use was medicate.  I doubt anyone can tell me whether or not smoking did or didn’t medicate at least a couple of the things that are ailing me, as no one to date can quite put their finger on what’s wrong to begin with.  Considering myself a junkie, and stubbornly believing I could overcome it with brute force was bullshit.  It blinded me to the fact that there might be something else wrong, and helped contribute to my relapse. If I would have recognized other external problems beyond my smoking, I might have gone to seek help with my ailments sooner, and stayed on the wagon.  Instead, I fell off, believed that this was due entirely to my incapability to control my "junkie thinking", and sent my depression spiraling even lower.  I was further provoked by certain individuals on this forum to basically "get over it and quit whining" (that was my interpretation anyway). Personally I think that not recognizing that nicotine is a drug, and does have medicinal qualities (note – I did not say benefits) can be extremely harmful.  If nicotine acts as an anti-depressant, and is removed without treating the depression, failure is assured along with the added benefit of destroying one’s self-esteem.  A great combination IMO.  Correcting these problems before quitting would be the key here, but can be more frustrating than quitting.  Doctor’s seem to have little interest in looking into problems any further than some random blood tests, and are quick to provide prescriptions that address a single issue, rather than looking deeper into the problem.  Depression can be a bitch to discover as well, as if it’s true that I’ve been suffering from it for 25 years, two other psychologists missed this completely over the course of that time.  Thinking that your addiction is simply thus, and not looking beyond it is a total mistake in some cases.  As I alluded to earlier, why make this harder than it has to be?  I’ve moved my stubbornness to correcting my ailments, rather than on my quit, and am starting to see some light at the end of the tunnel. Last thing I wanted to mention was your comment of "if a cutter cuts herself to distance emotional pain".  I have a friend who does precisely this.  She has been a close friend for many, many years now.  She is in a situation where she will never get treatment, and never be well.  Along with self-mutilation, she is a very heavy drinker (12-18 beers a day).  She and her family have identified her drinking as the root cause for all that ails her, and she is right now in AA following another incident that required 8 stitches in her wrist.  She will return to drinking, she will return to self-mutilation.  The reason being is that she has borderline personality disorder, not a drinking problem.  Her family’s stubbornness, believing that she is merely an addict, has doomed her to never getting the help she needs. I am not trying to form a comparison of severe mental disorders and smoking, I am trying to say that by following a single line of thinking might not be the correct route in all cases, and that focusing on a single line of correcting problems can guarantee failure. As I said in my other post (or at least try to say), I am not trying to provide reasons to keep smoking, but rather to keep an open mind, look beyond just the smoking aspect, it might make it easier to quit.  What works for some people, might not work for all.  Until I can get some proof that smoking has no medicinal qualities whatsoever (not benefits), I will stand behind my beliefs and say that sometime smoking does help fix problems.  Fix the problems, and quitting becomes easier, not recognizing this, and you might end up worse off.  Last time I stuck my nose around here, the prevalent theme was to do whatever works for you, and from judging from the replies I’ve been getting (on and off list), that seems to not be the case anymore.  It’s a pity, I’d hate to see someone else go down the same road I did. Greg Groth

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It does provide a benefit, the delivery method sucks. > I agree with Frank.  This is bullshit.  This whole "benefit" theme is pure, > 100 percent, unhelpful, dangerous, junkie thinking.  The only way smoking > "benefits" anybody is by distorting the meaning of the word "benefit" enough > so that you can also say crack cocaine and methamphetamine and > self-mutilation and anorexia and spouse-abuse "benefit" somebody. > Sure, if a cutter cuts herself to distance emotional pain, or a crackhead > smokes crack to postpone suicidal depression, it "works."  Temporarily. And > in the long run, such neurotic and unhealthy measures do so much damage to > the body, mind, and spirit, that they cannot meaningfully be called > "beneficial." > The same is true for smoking. > There’s no argument > that smoking is addictive, but it seems to me that if it didn’t fix some > things, it wouldn’t be so damn hard to quit. > Again, smoking "fixes" health problems, physical problems, and psychiatric > problems, only by distorting the meaning for the word "fix."  The fact that > a junkie does not know any way to "fix" his or her problems other than by > injecting narcotics does not mean that narcotics "fix" anything. > Narcotics kill.  Narcotics stunt emotional growth.  The same is true of > smoking. > There will never be a study on > the positive benefits of smoking, because it creates way more problems > than > it solves, and no one in the medical field would want to give anyone a > reason to keep doing it.  It’s a shame, it might help them figure out how > to > help people quit. > Actually, there have been studies on the reasons why smokers find tobacco > desirable, and they are worth reading in preparation for a quit, so you get > a clearer idea of what you’re undertaking.  But I also think your statement > is correct to the extent that no legitimate scientist outside the employ of > the tobacco companies is going to every research the "positive benefits" of > smoking, because such a research design is ridiculous ab initio. > If you have other problems, and try to quit without addressing them, > you’re > up for a steep uphill battle. > While no one would ever call someone who > needs thyroid replacement drugs addicted to their medication, or someone > with lupus addicted to prednizone to keep their kidneys from shutting > down, > no one stops to think what the chemicals in cigarettes might be doing to > their bodies outside of the obvious damage to their lungs. > Smoking does not treat, or fix, or benefit anything or any physical or > psychiatric or spiritual problem any more than crack cocaine, heroin, or > alcohol.  It is pure junkie thinking to try to compare thyroid medication to > smoking tobacco or crack. > It’s been a long time since I took a peek around these parts, and I see > some > familiar faces.  Currently I’m still riding the doctor-go-round.  Over the > past 12 months, dozens of blood tests have shown a number of weird things > in > my case, but nothing conclusive.  Right now I’m working with an > endocrinologist that suspects an adrenal gland problem, with secondary > hypothyroidism.  I’ve also been working with a psychologist who suspects > I’ve been suffering from depression for the past 25 years.  While I have > made a lot of headway with the psychological aspects, I’m still working on > the physical. > I’m glad you poked your head in, and I wish you all the best in working with > these issues.  I remember you, and I know you’ve got the stuff, and I look > forward to your setting your quit date. > In the meantime, I respectfully submit that getting rid of the "junkie > thinking" about tobacco’s "benefits" might be a helpful preparation for your > quit. > It’s been a year since I fell off the wagon, and when I fell, I fell hard. > Last year about this time, my whole life kind of fell apart.  Why I > started > smoking again, I don’t know.  My quit last year was one of severe > determination and the belief I could fight my way through anything.  I > couldn’t do it that way, I suppose I couldn’t force my way through all of > the underlying problems I had for long enough to walk away from smoking. > With my will gone, I turned into a basket case.  I hate to say it, but > after > trying various anti-depressants smoking proved to be the only way I could > get my head together enough to function at work and keep my job.  While > some > might read into this as I never wanted to quit, and they might partly be > right, I’ve spent the past year trying to find information on the links > between smoking and brain behavior and smoking’s effects on depression, > and > found none (from a chemical standpoint).  I’m not trying to justify my > actions, and I’m not trying to make a case for people to not quit.  I > think > too many people are treating themselves with smoking and don’t realize it, > and when they quit, it’s harder than it has to be. > No question, it’s hard.  But it’s hard for all of us, and it’s hard in > different ways, and nobody has a monopoly on the difficulty of beating this > awful addiction. > I’m sorry you relapsed.  I wouldn’t wish a relapse on my worst enemy.  I > know you’ll quit again soon. > Right now, you’re addicted, and IMO your thinking about these issues is not > quite on track.  Like any addict, you are doing some mental gymnastics to > justify your addiction.  And that’s okay, and I’m not trying to attack you > personally, but I just feel like I ought to say this because these little > digressions into junkie thinking can be awfully distracting for new quitters

… read more »

Response:

>It does provide a benefit, the delivery method sucks.

bullshit.

Response:

> It does provide a benefit, the delivery method sucks.

I agree with Frank.  This is bullshit.  This whole "benefit" theme is pure, 100 percent, unhelpful, dangerous, junkie thinking.  The only way smoking "benefits" anybody is by distorting the meaning of the word "benefit" enough so that you can also say crack cocaine and methamphetamine and self-mutilation and anorexia and spouse-abuse "benefit" somebody. Sure, if a cutter cuts herself to distance emotional pain, or a crackhead smokes crack to postpone suicidal depression, it "works."  Temporarily.  And in the long run, such neurotic and unhealthy measures do so much damage to the body, mind, and spirit, that they cannot meaningfully be called "beneficial." The same is true for smoking. > There’s no argument > that smoking is addictive, but it seems to me that if it didn’t fix some > things, it wouldn’t be so damn hard to quit.

Again, smoking "fixes" health problems, physical problems, and psychiatric problems, only by distorting the meaning for the word "fix."  The fact that a junkie does not know any way to "fix" his or her problems other than by injecting narcotics does not mean that narcotics "fix" anything. Narcotics kill.  Narcotics stunt emotional growth.  The same is true of smoking. > There will never be a study on > the positive benefits of smoking, because it creates way more problems than > it solves, and no one in the medical field would want to give anyone a > reason to keep doing it.  It’s a shame, it might help them figure out how to > help people quit.

Actually, there have been studies on the reasons why smokers find tobacco desirable, and they are worth reading in preparation for a quit, so you get a clearer idea of what you’re undertaking.  But I also think your statement is correct to the extent that no legitimate scientist outside the employ of the tobacco companies is going to every research the "positive benefits" of smoking, because such a research design is ridiculous ab initio. > If you have other problems, and try to quit without addressing them, you’re > up for a steep uphill battle. > While no one would ever call someone who > needs thyroid replacement drugs addicted to their medication, or someone > with lupus addicted to prednizone to keep their kidneys from shutting down, > no one stops to think what the chemicals in cigarettes might be doing to > their bodies outside of the obvious damage to their lungs.

Smoking does not treat, or fix, or benefit anything or any physical or psychiatric or spiritual problem any more than crack cocaine, heroin, or alcohol.  It is pure junkie thinking to try to compare thyroid medication to smoking tobacco or crack. > It’s been a long time since I took a peek around these parts, and I see some > familiar faces.  Currently I’m still riding the doctor-go-round.  Over the > past 12 months, dozens of blood tests have shown a number of weird things in > my case, but nothing conclusive.  Right now I’m working with an > endocrinologist that suspects an adrenal gland problem, with secondary > hypothyroidism.  I’ve also been working with a psychologist who suspects > I’ve been suffering from depression for the past 25 years.  While I have > made a lot of headway with the psychological aspects, I’m still working on > the physical.

I’m glad you poked your head in, and I wish you all the best in working with these issues.  I remember you, and I know you’ve got the stuff, and I look forward to your setting your quit date. In the meantime, I respectfully submit that getting rid of the "junkie thinking" about tobacco’s "benefits" might be a helpful preparation for your quit. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It’s been a year since I fell off the wagon, and when I fell, I fell hard. > Last year about this time, my whole life kind of fell apart.  Why I started > smoking again, I don’t know.  My quit last year was one of severe > determination and the belief I could fight my way through anything.  I > couldn’t do it that way, I suppose I couldn’t force my way through all of > the underlying problems I had for long enough to walk away from smoking. > With my will gone, I turned into a basket case.  I hate to say it, but after > trying various anti-depressants smoking proved to be the only way I could > get my head together enough to function at work and keep my job.  While some > might read into this as I never wanted to quit, and they might partly be > right, I’ve spent the past year trying to find information on the links > between smoking and brain behavior and smoking’s effects on depression, and > found none (from a chemical standpoint).  I’m not trying to justify my > actions, and I’m not trying to make a case for people to not quit.  I think > too many people are treating themselves with smoking and don’t realize it, > and when they quit, it’s harder than it has to be.

No question, it’s hard.  But it’s hard for all of us, and it’s hard in different ways, and nobody has a monopoly on the difficulty of beating this awful addiction. I’m sorry you relapsed.  I wouldn’t wish a relapse on my worst enemy.  I know you’ll quit again soon. Right now, you’re addicted, and IMO your thinking about these issues is not quite on track.  Like any addict, you are doing some mental gymnastics to justify your addiction.  And that’s okay, and I’m not trying to attack you personally, but I just feel like I ought to say this because these little digressions into junkie thinking can be awfully distracting for new quitters looking for a "reason" to smoke. There are no reasons to smoke.  There are only excusies. > Enough of my rambling.  Is Padders still around?  Or BirdBrain (sorry, can’t > remember his real name, been too long) or Jeff?  I’m hoping to get the rest > of my ailments taken care of by the end of the year, and come back and give > it another go.  In preparation I thought I would spend the next couple of > months lurking around, and getting my head in the right space.  Just thought > I’d use this opportunity to stick my nose in, say hi, and let everyone know > I’m planning on bothering everyone with my bike riding stories next year.

Glad you did.  Feel better soon.  I look forward to welcoming you out of The Cage. And please don’t think I’m attacking your personally.  If anything I’m saying comes across as unduly harsh, please believe I don’t mean it that way and that I really respect what you’re going through. If I sound harsh, I guess I can’t help it, because this whole "benefit" theme alarms me in a group that is trying to beat a life-threatening addiction.  Guys, just don’t go there.  Even if an OF is comfortable going there, that doesn’t mean it’s a good place for a new quitters to go.  Maybe an OF is just using the wrong word when s/he refers to "benefits" of smoking.  Maybe an OF might post about the "benefits" smoking because s/he is having trouble with his/her quit, grappling with some junkie thinking, and needs some feedback and support despite having the attained the exalted state of OF — lord knows I need some feedback and support myself sometimes. But I don’t think it’s supportive or helpful or wise to focus on, or even loosely refer to, the "benefits" of smoking.  This addiction is just too dangerous to entertain such delusions about it. Sorry if I’m sounding like a fucking know-it-all.  FWIW my intentions are good. epvof

Response:

> One thing I seem to disagree with the majority on is whether or not smoking > provides some kind of benefit to the smoker.

It does provide a benefit, the delivery method sucks.  There’s no argument that smoking is addictive, but it seems to me that if it didn’t fix some things, it wouldn’t be so damn hard to quit.  There will never be a study on the positive benefits of smoking, because it creates way more problems than it solves, and no one in the medical field would want to give anyone a reason to keep doing it.  It’s a shame, it might help them figure out how to help people quit. If you have other problems, and try to quit without addressing them, you’re up for a steep uphill battle.  While no one would ever call someone who needs thyroid replacement drugs addicted to their medication, or someone with lupus addicted to prednizone to keep their kidneys from shutting down, no one stops to think what the chemicals in cigarettes might be doing to their bodies outside of the obvious damage to their lungs. It’s been a long time since I took a peek around these parts, and I see some familiar faces.  Currently I’m still riding the doctor-go-round.  Over the past 12 months, dozens of blood tests have shown a number of weird things in my case, but nothing conclusive.  Right now I’m working with an endocrinologist that suspects an adrenal gland problem, with secondary hypothyroidism.  I’ve also been working with a psychologist who suspects I’ve been suffering from depression for the past 25 years.  While I have made a lot of headway with the psychological aspects, I’m still working on the physical. It’s been a year since I fell off the wagon, and when I fell, I fell hard. Last year about this time, my whole life kind of fell apart.  Why I started smoking again, I don’t know.  My quit last year was one of severe determination and the belief I could fight my way through anything.  I couldn’t do it that way, I suppose I couldn’t force my way through all of the underlying problems I had for long enough to walk away from smoking. With my will gone, I turned into a basket case.  I hate to say it, but after trying various anti-depressants smoking proved to be the only way I could get my head together enough to function at work and keep my job.  While some might read into this as I never wanted to quit, and they might partly be right, I’ve spent the past year trying to find information on the links between smoking and brain behavior and smoking’s effects on depression, and found none (from a chemical standpoint).  I’m not trying to justify my actions, and I’m not trying to make a case for people to not quit.  I think too many people are treating themselves with smoking and don’t realize it, and when they quit, it’s harder than it has to be. Enough of my rambling.  Is Padders still around?  Or BirdBrain (sorry, can’t remember his real name, been too long) or Jeff?  I’m hoping to get the rest of my ailments taken care of by the end of the year, and come back and give it another go.  In preparation I thought I would spend the next couple of months lurking around, and getting my head in the right space.  Just thought I’d use this opportunity to stick my nose in, say hi, and let everyone know I’m planning on bothering everyone with my bike riding stories next year. Greg Groth

Response:

Personally, the only "benefit" I ever received from smoking was looking forward to the next cigarette, purely because I was addicted, no two ways about it.  As far as people taking it up goes, my mother was (and still is) a smoker, I always *vowed* never ever to take up the habit for the smell alone, but low and behold I took it up.  She was a busy person and I saw, from childhood, that smoking seemed to relax her so that stayed ingrained in me (ie. it was a benefit to her).  Though tobacco advertisement is illegal (in Australia anyway) you still see people on the street, on the TV, in movies, and at the pub in the actual act of "enjoying" a cigarette, for me it is little wonder I became addicted to it…even if it meant a few harsh cigarettes to start with, it gave me a head rush in the initial stages and within a year I didn’t just want them, I thought I needed them to get through the day.  Now, if you took a substance that was addictive (eg. like caffeine in coke, or coffee) which was *necessary* to get through the day, would the act of taking it appear to be enjoyable or distasteful?  I can tell you that when I was at work I absolutely loved my smoke break at 10am…now it honestly doesn’t hold a tenth the significance it used to.  

Response:

Diane, I really enjoyed this post. Are you a psychiatrist? Thanks for making us think about this process in another light. Sam — 1w 1d 23:01 smoke-free, 178 cigs not smoked, $62.30 saved, 14:50 life saved

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve been reading a lot more than posting lately, and I’ve noticed that I > often disagree with someone whom I respect very much.  I don’t generally > reply, because I’ve gotten pretty philosophical about quitting, and I feel > that there are a lot of different ideas out there that deserve to be heard, > and if an idea isn’t actually harmful, imo, I don’t have a need to correct > something that is really not wrong, but merely a difference of opinion. > One thing I seem to disagree with the majority on is whether or not smoking > provides some kind of benefit to the smoker.    To me, it seems illogical > that millions of people would partake of an activity that has absolutely no > benefit and is extremely dangerous to their health.  Saying that people are > addicted, and therefore do not have a choice begs several questions, such as > "Why did they get addicted in the first place, if smoking is so unpleasant?" > and "Why do people re-lapse long after they have gotten past physical > addiction, if they do not expect some benefit?".  I’ve seen a lot of answers > to the first question, ranging from peer pressure to sheer stupidity… > but… none really answer the question: Why do so many people smoke long > enough to get addicted if it is totally unpleasant and brings no pleasure. > The only answer I ever see the latter question is equally unsatisfying to > me:  That somehow the people who lapse are weaker than other people, or had > never really committed to quitting.  I’ve seen too many people who were > absolutely determined to quit lapse.  These were honest, thinking people. I > don’t believe that they were lying about their determination.  There must be > more. > In my mind, quitting smoking involves several stages.  In the first stage, > the person starts to think about quitting.  Then, they take action to do > so – educating themselves and getting patches or welbutrin.  The quitting > process itself if the hardest stage, since it involves withdrawal symptoms > that are frequently quit unpleasant, and processes that are quite > life-altering.  There really isn’t much opportunity to think about the loss > at this stage, because the quitter must be totally focused on their quit in > order to get past the addiction.  This is the stage at which mind games come > in handy.  Then the quitter moves into the next stage: coming to terms with > being quit, and loss of the benefits of smoking, and learning to live > without those benefits.  This sequence is based on observation and > experience.  I’ve seen a lot of people stick around here long after their > physical withdrawal was over, and often they have to learn to re-live their > lives – sometimes re-examining the very foundation of their lives.  I’ve > seen marriages break up, people quit their jobs, move.. change their live in > dramatic ways.  I’ve read the statistics on re-lapse after relatively long > periods of time – periods that exceed the scientific evidence for when > physical withdrawal ends.  The only logical explanation that I can see is > that people sometimes miss something about smoking, and in a time of > weakness or crisis, they smoke to get back whatever it is that they miss. > Why am I bringing this up?  I know that there are newbies out there who want > to believe that in X weeks they are going to be smoke free and will never > want another cigarette.  That was my goal once, too.  I know that some of > those newbies will be threatened by this post, thinking that it means that > they won’t ever be able to quit "happily".  That isn’t what I mean, though. > I just don’t think that we are doing a service to people pretending that > they are going to experience something that they won’t.  At least not for a > long time.  Maybe at some point a person stops ever considering smoking. > But it seems to take quite a while.  Years, in many cases.  For some people > it doesn’t happen at all.  Occasional craves are part of life for a long > time, and ignoring them won’t make them go away.  Denying that smoking > provided us with something means that we can’t accept the loss and deal with > it.  It means that that loss stays with us, lingering in our minds, until in > a moment of weakness we are forced to choose between addressing it and > smoking.  Too many choose the latter.  In just about every other aspect of > our lives we recognize that every change involves some sort of loss, even > positive change.  Marriage or having a child means loss of freedom. Leaving > for college or establishing a career means loss of the security of our > families.  Even the most positive changes result in some loss.  Quitting > smoking is the most positive, and one of the most dramatic, changes that a > person will ever experience.  Why should it be different?  I think it is > because during the first few weeks of quitting we can’t think about that > loss, or it will overwhelm us.  We have to be totally focuses on quitting. > After we get past that stage, it is entirely too easy to just deny that a > loss ever occurred and try to move on.  The unfortunate part is that for > many people, that leaves them unprepared to deal with a crisis when they > find themselves unequipped to deal with it without smoking.   I experienced > it myself, twice.  The first time when I was frightened and alone, and used > nicotine as a drug to control my unstable emotions.  The second when I > smoked simply because I was afraid of the emotions brought on by a > significant loss.  If I had established tools in advance to deal with these > situations, I would not have smoked.  But I assumed that my quit was solid, > and didn’t bother to think about the possibility that I might smoke if X > happened. > Well, I never make the same mistake twice (there are so many new and > different mistakes to make <g>).  I have dealt with the loss by accepting it > and reminding myself frequently that I prefer not smoking to smoking. That > is the truth.  I liked smoking, but I like not smoking much more.  I can > list at least a dozen things I liked about smoking. At the same time, I can > honestly state that there are many ways my life has been enhanced by > learning to live without smoking, and that my life is better overall since I > quit.  I have worked to identify reasons I smoked, and add features to my > not-smoking life to compensate for the loss of those things.  Mostly, I have > been successful, which is why I’m not smoking.  I have taken up mediation, > and established clear guidelines under which I might smoke, and then taken > steps to ensure that those guidelines are not met.  Some think that > acknowledging that I might smoke indicates a lack of will to not smoke. In > my mind it is exactly the opposite.  It indicates a will to not smoke, and a > willingness to make whatever sacrifices I need to make to not do so. > But what about people who don’t want to make accommodations?  There are > other ways of being quit.  One can use anger to maintain ones determination > to stay quit.  But I don’t like the people who have done that much.  In > order to fight the urges to smoke, they seem to have to let that anger > totally overwhelm their life.  I hate to think of the darkness in their > minds.  Anger is an unpleasant emotion, both to experience and to observe. > Some use plain old-fashioned stubbornness.  They establish the idea that > they WILL NOT SMOKE and stick with it like permanent adhesive.  They come up > with rules which must remain inviolate.   That wouldn’t work for me.  I’m a > pretty flexible person – I can only hold onto a good stubborn for so long, > and then my brain starts saying "I’m tired of this, let’s just go back to > the way it was".  I hate rules that don’t seem essential to survival.  For > me what works is moving "toward the light".  Toward the positive of not > smoking, toward a life in which smoking is unnecessary because it does not > fill any need I have not already filled some other way.  It takes time, and > thought, and a willingness to adapt my life in ways I had not previously > expected.  I don’t know if it will work.  It will be interesting to see in 5 > years who is still quit and who isn’t.  And who is happy and who isn’t.  I > hope that we will all find accommodations, in our own way. > I guess the point of this post is to tell newbies: There is not one path to > smobriety.  The "junkie thinking" rules are not laws of nature, they are > tools which may be used or rejected according to your own personal > preference and need.  You may need to accept each rule as gospel in order to > quit and remain smoke free. But if you can’t, there are other ways.  . Good > luck and strength in your quit. > Diane M.

Response:

<snipped for brevity> > I guess the point of this post is to tell newbies: There is not one path to > smobriety.  The "junkie thinking" rules are not laws of nature, they are > tools which may be used or rejected according to your own personal > preference and need.  You may need to accept each rule as gospel in order to > quit and remain smoke free. But if you can’t, there are other ways.

<snip> Diane, Thanks.  This is a great post you’ve share and hopefully it will end up in a few people’s hold files to be re-read as needed. Morgan VOF

Response:

Thanks, Diane, for providing food for thought as I work my way past the emotional roller coaster of physical addiction, and progress into, some other, nameless and formless stage. That is, an unknown stage, untill I saw these words of yours:  Then the quitter moves into the next stage: coming to terms with being quit, and loss of the benefits of smoking, and learning to live without those benefits.  This sequence is based on observation and experience. Moll Smoke free 2 weeks, 5 days, 4 hours, 56 minutes, 39 seconds, money saved $72.00, Cigarettes not smoked 479, Life saved a day 15 hours, 55 minutes.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve been reading a lot more than posting lately, and I’ve noticed that I > often disagree with someone whom I respect very much.  I don’t generally > reply, because I’ve gotten pretty philosophical about quitting, and I feel > that there are a lot of different ideas out there that deserve to be heard, > and if an idea isn’t actually harmful, imo, I don’t have a need to correct > something that is really not wrong, but merely a difference of opinion. > One thing I seem to disagree with the majority on is whether or not smoking > provides some kind of benefit to the smoker.    To me, it seems illogical > that millions of people would partake of an activity that has absolutely no > benefit and is extremely dangerous to their health.  Saying that people are > addicted, and therefore do not have a choice begs several questions, such as > "Why did they get addicted in the first place, if smoking is so unpleasant?" > and "Why do people re-lapse long after they have gotten past physical > addiction, if they do not expect some benefit?".  I’ve seen a lot of answers > to the first question, ranging from peer pressure to sheer stupidity… > but… none really answer the question: Why do so many people smoke long > enough to get addicted if it is totally unpleasant and brings no pleasure. > The only answer I ever see the latter question is equally unsatisfying to > me:  That somehow the people who lapse are weaker than other people, or had > never really committed to quitting.  I’ve seen too many people who were > absolutely determined to quit lapse.  These were honest, thinking people. I > don’t believe that they were lying about their determination.  There must be > more. > In my mind, quitting smoking involves several stages.  In the first stage, > the person starts to think about quitting.  Then, they take action to do > so – educating themselves and getting patches or welbutrin.  The quitting > process itself if the hardest stage, since it involves withdrawal symptoms > that are frequently quit unpleasant, and processes that are quite > life-altering.  There really isn’t much opportunity to think about the loss > at this stage, because the quitter must be totally focused on their quit in > order to get past the addiction.  This is the stage at which mind games come > in handy.  Then the quitter moves into the next stage: coming to terms with > being quit, and loss of the benefits of smoking, and learning to live > without those benefits.  This sequence is based on observation and > experience.  I’ve seen a lot of people stick around here long after their > physical withdrawal was over, and often they have to learn to re-live their > lives – sometimes re-examining the very foundation of their lives.  I’ve > seen marriages break up, people quit their jobs, move.. change their live in > dramatic ways.  I’ve read the statistics on re-lapse after relatively long > periods of time – periods that exceed the scientific evidence for when > physical withdrawal ends.  The only logical explanation that I can see is > that people sometimes miss something about smoking, and in a time of > weakness or crisis, they smoke to get back whatever it is that they miss. > Why am I bringing this up?  I know that there are newbies out there who want > to believe that in X weeks they are going to be smoke free and will never > want another cigarette.  That was my goal once, too.  I know that some of > those newbies will be threatened by this post, thinking that it means that > they won’t ever be able to quit "happily".  That isn’t what I mean, though. > I just don’t think that we are doing a service to people pretending that > they are going to experience something that they won’t.  At least not for a > long time.  Maybe at some point a person stops ever considering smoking. > But it seems to take quite a while.  Years, in many cases.  For some people > it doesn’t happen at all.  Occasional craves are part of life for a long > time, and ignoring them won’t make them go away.  Denying that smoking > provided us with something means that we can’t accept the loss and deal with > it.  It means that that loss stays with us, lingering in our minds, until in > a moment of weakness we are forced to choose between addressing it and > smoking.  Too many choose the latter.  In just about every other aspect of > our lives we recognize that every change involves some sort of loss, even > positive change.  Marriage or having a child means loss of freedom. Leaving > for college or establishing a career means loss of the security of our > families.  Even the most positive changes result in some loss.  Quitting > smoking is the most positive, and one of the most dramatic, changes that a > person will ever experience.  Why should it be different?  I think it is > because during the first few weeks of quitting we can’t think about that > loss, or it will overwhelm us.  We have to be totally focuses on quitting. > After we get past that stage, it is entirely too easy to just deny that a > loss ever occurred and try to move on.  The unfortunate part is that for > many people, that leaves them unprepared to deal with a crisis when they > find themselves unequipped to deal with it without smoking.   I experienced > it myself, twice.  The first time when I was frightened and alone, and used > nicotine as a drug to control my unstable emotions.  The second when I > smoked simply because I was afraid of the emotions brought on by a > significant loss.  If I had established tools in advance to deal with these > situations, I would not have smoked.  But I assumed that my quit was solid, > and didn’t bother to think about the possibility that I might smoke if X > happened. > Well, I never make the same mistake twice (there are so many new and > different mistakes to make <g>).  I have dealt with the loss by accepting it > and reminding myself frequently that I prefer not smoking to smoking. That > is the truth.  I liked smoking, but I like not smoking much more.  I can > list at least a dozen things I liked about smoking. At the same time, I can > honestly state that there are many ways my life has been enhanced by > learning to live without smoking, and that my life is better overall since I > quit.  I have worked to identify reasons I smoked, and add features to my > not-smoking life to compensate for the loss of those things.  Mostly, I have > been successful, which is why I’m not smoking.  I have taken up mediation, > and established clear guidelines under which I might smoke, and then taken > steps to ensure that those guidelines are not met.  Some think that > acknowledging that I might smoke indicates a lack of will to not smoke. In > my mind it is exactly the opposite.  It indicates a will to not smoke, and a > willingness to make whatever sacrifices I need to make to not do so. > But what about people who don’t want to make accommodations?  There are > other ways of being quit.  One can use anger to maintain ones determination > to stay quit.  But I don’t like the people who have done that much.  In > order to fight the urges to smoke, they seem to have to let that anger > totally overwhelm their life.  I hate to think of the darkness in their > minds.  Anger is an unpleasant emotion, both to experience and to observe. > Some use plain old-fashioned stubbornness.  They establish the idea that > they WILL NOT SMOKE and stick with it like permanent adhesive.  They come up > with rules which must remain inviolate.   That wouldn’t work for me.  I’m a > pretty flexible person – I can only hold onto a good stubborn for so long, > and then my brain starts saying "I’m tired of this, let’s just go back to > the way it was".  I hate rules that don’t seem essential to survival.  For > me what works is moving "toward the light".  Toward the positive of not > smoking, toward a life in which smoking is unnecessary because it does not > fill any need I have not already filled some other way.  It takes time, and > thought, and a willingness to adapt my life in ways I had not previously > expected.  I don’t know if it will work.  It will be interesting to see in 5 > years who is still quit and who isn’t.  And who is happy and who isn’t.  I > hope that we will all find accommodations, in our own way. > I guess the point of this post is to tell newbies: There is not one path to > smobriety.  The "junkie thinking" rules are not laws of nature, they are > tools which may be used or rejected according to your own personal > preference and need.  You may need to accept each rule as gospel in order to > quit and remain smoke free. But if you can’t, there are other ways.  . Good > luck and strength in your quit. > Diane M.

Response:

> One thing I seem to disagree with the majority on is whether or not smoking > provides some kind of benefit to the smoker.

Yes, there is always something "enjoyable" or "good" about any addictive substance.  I mean, obviously.  Of course.  You name it: crack, alcohol, heroin, methamphetmine, overeating.  And that "good" aspect doesn’t disappear once you’ve quit, and it may "tempt" you occasionally.  Of course. I wouldn’t call it a "benefit," though.  I think it stretches the meaning of the concept of "benefit" to say that addictive substances "benefit" you by getting you high, relaxing you, giving you a sense of comfort, keeping you awake, keeping you focussed, etc.  Those are not a "benefits," those are transient and unhealthy delusions.  You can get REAL benefits in each of these respects in healthy ways, without resorting to addictive substances. Sure, I "liked" or "enjoyed" some of the thousands and thousands and thousands of cigarettes I smoked during the course of 27 stinking, expensive, unhealthy, enslaved years.  So what? Most people believe that a life lived free of addiction is preferable to a life enslaved to your buzz of choice.  Personally, I certainly prefer freedom to addiction, regardless of how "beneficial" crack cocaine and cigarettes are. epvof

Response:

I’ve been reading a lot more than posting lately, and I’ve noticed that I often disagree with someone whom I respect very much.  I don’t generally reply, because I’ve gotten pretty philosophical about quitting, and I feel that there are a lot of different ideas out there that deserve to be heard, and if an idea isn’t actually harmful, imo, I don’t have a need to correct something that is really not wrong, but merely a difference of opinion. One thing I seem to disagree with the majority on is whether or not smoking provides some kind of benefit to the smoker.    To me, it seems illogical that millions of people would partake of an activity that has absolutely no benefit and is extremely dangerous to their health.  Saying that people are addicted, and therefore do not have a choice begs several questions, such as "Why did they get addicted in the first place, if smoking is so unpleasant?" and "Why do people re-lapse long after they have gotten past physical addiction, if they do not expect some benefit?".  I’ve seen a lot of answers to the first question, ranging from peer pressure to sheer stupidity… but… none really answer the question: Why do so many people smoke long enough to get addicted if it is totally unpleasant and brings no pleasure. The only answer I ever see the latter question is equally unsatisfying to me:  That somehow the people who lapse are weaker than other people, or had never really committed to quitting.  I’ve seen too many people who were absolutely determined to quit lapse.  These were honest, thinking people.  I don’t believe that they were lying about their determination.  There must be more. In my mind, quitting smoking involves several stages.  In the first stage, the person starts to think about quitting.  Then, they take action to do so – educating themselves and getting patches or welbutrin.  The quitting process itself if the hardest stage, since it involves withdrawal symptoms that are frequently quit unpleasant, and processes that are quite life-altering.  There really isn’t much opportunity to think about the loss at this stage, because the quitter must be totally focused on their quit in order to get past the addiction.  This is the stage at which mind games come in handy.  Then the quitter moves into the next stage: coming to terms with being quit, and loss of the benefits of smoking, and learning to live without those benefits.  This sequence is based on observation and experience.  I’ve seen a lot of people stick around here long after their physical withdrawal was over, and often they have to learn to re-live their lives – sometimes re-examining the very foundation of their lives.  I’ve seen marriages break up, people quit their jobs, move.. change their live in dramatic ways.  I’ve read the statistics on re-lapse after relatively long periods of time – periods that exceed the scientific evidence for when physical withdrawal ends.  The only logical explanation that I can see is that people sometimes miss something about smoking, and in a time of weakness or crisis, they smoke to get back whatever it is that they miss. Why am I bringing this up?  I know that there are newbies out there who want to believe that in X weeks they are going to be smoke free and will never want another cigarette.  That was my goal once, too.  I know that some of those newbies will be threatened by this post, thinking that it means that they won’t ever be able to quit "happily".  That isn’t what I mean, though. I just don’t think that we are doing a service to people pretending that they are going to experience something that they won’t.  At least not for a long time.  Maybe at some point a person stops ever considering smoking. But it seems to take quite a while.  Years, in many cases.  For some people it doesn’t happen at all.  Occasional craves are part of life for a long time, and ignoring them won’t make them go away.  Denying that smoking provided us with something means that we can’t accept the loss and deal with it.  It means that that loss stays with us, lingering in our minds, until in a moment of weakness we are forced to choose between addressing it and smoking.  Too many choose the latter.  In just about every other aspect of our lives we recognize that every change involves some sort of loss, even positive change.  Marriage or having a child means loss of freedom.  Leaving for college or establishing a career means loss of the security of our families.  Even the most positive changes result in some loss.  Quitting smoking is the most positive, and one of the most dramatic, changes that a person will ever experience.  Why should it be different?  I think it is because during the first few weeks of quitting we can’t think about that loss, or it will overwhelm us.  We have to be totally focuses on quitting. After we get past that stage, it is entirely too easy to just deny that a loss ever occurred and try to move on.  The unfortunate part is that for many people, that leaves them unprepared to deal with a crisis when they find themselves unequipped to deal with it without smoking.   I experienced it myself, twice.  The first time when I was frightened and alone, and used nicotine as a drug to control my unstable emotions.  The second when I smoked simply because I was afraid of the emotions brought on by a significant loss.  If I had established tools in advance to deal with these situations, I would not have smoked.  But I assumed that my quit was solid, and didn’t bother to think about the possibility that I might smoke if X happened. Well, I never make the same mistake twice (there are so many new and different mistakes to make <g>).  I have dealt with the loss by accepting it and reminding myself frequently that I prefer not smoking to smoking.  That is the truth.  I liked smoking, but I like not smoking much more.  I can list at least a dozen things I liked about smoking. At the same time, I can honestly state that there are many ways my life has been enhanced by learning to live without smoking, and that my life is better overall since I quit.  I have worked to identify reasons I smoked, and add features to my not-smoking life to compensate for the loss of those things.  Mostly, I have been successful, which is why I’m not smoking.  I have taken up mediation, and established clear guidelines under which I might smoke, and then taken steps to ensure that those guidelines are not met.  Some think that acknowledging that I might smoke indicates a lack of will to not smoke.  In my mind it is exactly the opposite.  It indicates a will to not smoke, and a willingness to make whatever sacrifices I need to make to not do so. But what about people who don’t want to make accommodations?  There are other ways of being quit.  One can use anger to maintain ones determination to stay quit.  But I don’t like the people who have done that much.  In order to fight the urges to smoke, they seem to have to let that anger totally overwhelm their life.  I hate to think of the darkness in their minds.  Anger is an unpleasant emotion, both to experience and to observe. Some use plain old-fashioned stubbornness.  They establish the idea that they WILL NOT SMOKE and stick with it like permanent adhesive.  They come up with rules which must remain inviolate.   That wouldn’t work for me.  I’m a pretty flexible person – I can only hold onto a good stubborn for so long, and then my brain starts saying "I’m tired of this, let’s just go back to the way it was".  I hate rules that don’t seem essential to survival.  For me what works is moving "toward the light".  Toward the positive of not smoking, toward a life in which smoking is unnecessary because it does not fill any need I have not already filled some other way.  It takes time, and thought, and a willingness to adapt my life in ways I had not previously expected.  I don’t know if it will work.  It will be interesting to see in 5 years who is still quit and who isn’t.  And who is happy and who isn’t.  I hope that we will all find accommodations, in our own way. I guess the point of this post is to tell newbies: There is not one path to smobriety.  The "junkie thinking" rules are not laws of nature, they are tools which may be used or rejected according to your own personal preference and need.  You may need to accept each rule as gospel in order to quit and remain smoke free. But if you can’t, there are other ways.  .  Good luck and strength in your quit. Diane M.

Response: